What should your mortgage lender tell you about your loan?
Bankrate.com has a new survey out that found that 34% of homeowners didn't know what kind of mortgage they had. That's a disaster, folks. Better disclosure would help. Your average credit card application is easier to decode than many mortgage documents. Alex J. Pollock of the American Enterprise Institute, in testimony to the House subcommitte on financial institutions today, says that banks should give all borrowers a one page document with the following information.
-Amount of loan -LTV [loan-to-value] ratio -Final maturity -Prepayment fee, if any -Balloon payment, if any -Points and closing costs -Initial rate on loan in % and monthly payment in dollars -How long this rate is good for=when higher rate starts -Fully indexed rate on loan in % and monthly payment in dollars -Your household income on which this loan is based -Initial monthly payment as % of income, and payment plus taxes and insurance as % income -Fully indexed monthly payment as % income, and payment plus taxes and insurance as % income -A name, number and e-mail for you to contact with any questions -An authorized signature of the loan originator -The signature of the borrower.
What's amazing is that all this isn't standard practice already. (By the way, I'll be blogging fairly lightly this week. The day job is looking like it will be a day-and-night job for a bit.)

 
The Ratchet Mortgage
At CreditSlips.org, Tara Twomey tells us about one-way ARMs:

The Senate Banking Committee has invited representatives from the top five subprime lending companies to "explain their lending practices in the subprime mortgage market" at a hearing scheduled for tomorrow, March 22. With all the recent focus on teaser rates and no document loans, the one-way adjustable rate mortgage (ARM) probably won't get much attention. An analysis of the actual terms of recent ARM loans, however, shows that one-way ARMs are yet another example of how subprime lenders stack the deck against borrowers.

In its simplest form an adjustable rate mortgage is one in which the interest rate for the loan is pegged to an "index" and for which the interest rate is adjusted at set intervals (e.g., 6 months, 1 year, etc.). If the index increases, the borrower's interest rate increases, if the index declines, the borrower's interest rate goes down. The floating rate structure of the ARM allows lenders and borrowers to share the interest rate risk. In exchange for assuming some of this risk, borrowers generally receive lower initial interest rates. This economic reward for risk-sharing is the justification for ARM loans--at least in theory.

In practice, the one-way ARM, which is ubiquitous in the subprime market, only adjusts upwards from the initial rate. By the terms of the note the interest rate can never drop below the initial rate even if the index goes down. As a result, borrowers, not Wall Street, bear the brunt of any interest rate volatility.


 
Unsurprising chart of the week: mortgage moolah

 
Please buy this annuity. My daughter needs surgery.
Investment News, a trade newspaper for financial advisers, reports:
Some insurers are taking away their advisers' group health insurance and other employment benefits if proprietary-product quotas aren't met, advisers say. ..."For some advisers, health insurance is a bigger incentive than trips to Rio [de Janeiro, Brazil], extra commission income or plaques and trophies," [investment adviser Chris] Cooper said.

Oh, brother.

Second prize is a set of steak knives. Third prize is a five-figure hospital bill.


 
EZ credit! (Until you want out)
This chart pretty much speaks for itself. Harvard Law School bankruptcy expert Elizabeth Warren points to these numbers in this blog post at one of my new favorite wonk sites, CreditSlips.org. Here's Warren:
In 2005, Congress gave the credit industry what it wanted: tighter bankruptcy laws. In 2006, the credit industry responded by mailing out 8 billion credit card solicitations--up 30% from 2005. Larry Ausubel and others predicted during the debates over the bankruptcy laws that if Congress made it tougher to go bankrupt, then lenders would engage in riskier lending as they tried harder to get people to borrow.

What kinds of risks are the card companies willing to take on? With about 110 million households in the US, that's about 73 card offers per household. If the average card offers is about $5,000 in pre-approved credit, that about $365,000 in offers for every American household--or about $1000 a day, every day of the year....

If debtors have no bankruptcy option, Ronald Mann points out that creditors can keep them in the sweat box longer. Perhaps if bankruptcy were outlawed altogether the mailings would go to 16 billion, and if debtors' prisons were reinstituted, could the mailings top 25 billion? Ah, the possibilities.

By the way, you can call (888) 5-OPT-OUT if you want to stop getting these mailings. Click here for more info from the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse.


 
Time for a mortgage bailout?
Senator (and Presdential hopeful) Chris Dodd is talking about it. After all, 2.2 million American households are at risk. Maybe more. But what would a bailout look like? For a start, there's moral suasion. Before we consider any major government spending, lenders are going to have to take their licks. Here's Berkeley economist Brad DeLong, arguing that the problem here isn't simply that some homeowners got in over their heads. The whole system failed, and that means everyone with a stake in it has to pitch in to prevent a crisis:
I can see one constructive thing that bank regulators can do: they can publicly note [to lenders] that foreclosure is an appropriate response to individual cases in which payments are not being made because idiosyncratic things have gone wrong with individual household's finances, but that foreclosure is not an appropriate response to a systemic problem triggered by macroeconomic risks that have come calling. The appropriate response [for lenders] when it is an aggregate rather than an idiosyncratic shock is to renegotiate the loan--not to foreclose on a homeowner. And banks that do the second rather than the first are not fulfilling their responsibility to the system of which they are a part.
Don't provide direct financial support to homeowners in trouble, urges Nouriel Roubini of Roubini Global Economics:
Public funds to help borrowers should be used with care for several reasons. First, some forms of borrowers' financial support end up bailing out also the culprits of this mess; thus, these specific forms of support of homeowners under financial distress should be avoided. For example, direct subsidies to households who cannot afford their now-reset and excessively high mortgage payments end up helping the victims as well as the culprits.
By "culprits" Roubini means the lenders. Instead, he says, the feds should force the lender to renegotiate payments:
For example, suppose that the value of a home (with zero down-payment) has fallen 10% (following the current housing bust) and that the borrower cannot now pay the full value of the mortgage debt servicing payments that are now being reset at much higher interest rates. Then, if the borrower can afford a lower string of service payments that, in NPV [net present value, I think--P.R.] terms, is 10% lower than the initial terms of the mortgage (and equal to the true value of the home), the solution will be to allow a reduction of 10% (in NPV terms) of the debt-servicing payments for the borrower.
Hillary Clinton wants to make it easier for people to refinance out of onerous loans. From Bloomberg:
Clinton proposed eliminating pre-payment penalties that she said are "designed to trap borrowers" by imposing high fees for paying off loans ahead of time. Such penalties apply to 70 percent of subprime loans and less than 5 percent of prime loans, she said.
[Update 3/19: Here are Clinton's remarks. On reading it again, I see it's not clear if she's proposing to change the terms of current subbprime loans. Seems like not.] Washington Post columnist Steven Pearlstein suggests a new mission for Fannie and Freddie:
...what's needed is some mechanism to encourage the faceless investors who now hold those mortgages to accept less money than they were expecting, while at the same time helping homeowners to refinance their homes with more appropriate mortgages. This, it seems to me, is a perfect assignment for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which were chartered by the federal government with the express purpose of stepping in when private markets fail. They have the ability to raise and commit billions of dollars to the refinancing effort. They have active networks of lenders with necessary skills in financial counseling and loan workouts. And what better way for them to atone for their recent accounting sins and burnish their affordable-housing bona fides than to provide a market-based solution to this mess? Even then, it won't be easy. Getting investors to forgo further interest payments and take 60 or 80 cents on the dollar they are owed may require some financial sweeteners. And to pay for those sweeteners, homeowners -- who, by the way, have some responsibility here -- would have to agree to share any profits they earn from selling or refinancing their homes in the future. Through the magic of securitization, Fannie and Freddie could turn that future stream of income into needed cash today.
[Update 3/19: It's worth underlining the point that the ideas discussed above don't require, as a first order of business, a direct government subsidy. But from the news story I linked to, it certainly sounds like Dodd is willing to have Congress stump up some cash.] Nicole Gelinas at the conservative City Journal makes the case for government just butting out:
If the government, or its proxy, now steps in and purchases those mortgages, or otherwise systematically bails out borrowers, it will create a hazard for the future. The next generation of mortgage lenders won't take the high risk of subprime home loans seriously, because they'll expect that, in the event of another crisis, the government will step in and bail them out again. So they'll be even more eager to approve the risky subprime mortgages that are getting so many borrowers into trouble in the first place. And what about all those afflicted borrowers? It’s a harsh but unavoidable truth that many of them are in trouble now because they borrowed overpriced houses that were way beyond their means. If a family didn’t do the hard work of saving for a down payment and buying a house on which it could afford to pay a normal 30-year mortgage, it's unfair for the government to bail it out—and its lender. Remember who would subsidize that bailout through federal taxes: the family down the street that rented for a few years while it saved up money, or that bought a smaller, older house within its means.
By the way, my family is "the family down the street" that kept on renting rather than overstretching our finances to buy in a market we can't afford. So I sympathize with that last point. But this kind of cool tit-for-tat analysis seems a little unmoored from everyday experience. For the sake of argument, let's set aside the issue of whether lenders were deceitful or predatory, or whether the government encouraged this kind of behavior. I know I'm going to get lots of comments about 25-year-old idiots with $45,000 salaries buying McMansions and giant plasma screens and fancy cars that they couldn't afford. But I suspect that many people who are in trouble now were mostly trying to buy into a safe, stable neighborhood with good schools. The real-life choice for many families in bubble markets isn't between a fancy McMansion and a modest older home. It's between a house in a school district that works, and a house in one that doesn't. Still, who could really argue that the government should prop up unrealistic home prices? Clearly, the air has to come out of some of these markets. The question is: How quickly? If mortgage blow-ups are really a dire threat to the overall economy, perhaps even those who were prudent all these years could grudgingly accept a carefully limited government intervention. Forced into a choice, I'd rather keep my job than satisfy my sense of cosmic justice.

 
A preview of the coming national health care debate
It used to be that political advertising was mostly limited to the election season. But lately, during the 11 o'clock news, New Yorkers have been treated to a back-and-forth ad battle between liberal Democratic Gov. Eliot Spitzer and a coalition of hospitals and the big healthcare-workers union. Spitzer wants to reduce state health spending, especially Medicare payments to hospitals; he also wants to expand Medicaid coverage for the uninsured. Here's a sample of the ads. First the ad from the union and hospitals: The New York Post is reporting today that the hospitals group has pulled out of the campaign. Here's the ad from the governor: So... scrappy, compassionate nurses, or angelic sick kids. Which do you like better? We're going to see more of this kind of thing all across the country, and eventually it's going to become a feature of the national debate. Whether we end up with a system of universal care, or plod along with the current "private" system in which the government pays for 45% to 60% of spending, or do something market-based, this country is going to have to figure out a way to control health care costs. If we move towards more, rather than less, government involvement in health care--and that's my prediction--voters will have to make some choices. Should we hold down the salaries of hard-working nurses? Squeeze the incomes of expensively trained and dedicated doctors? Put pressure on the profits of the drug companies that develop all these great new treatments? Shut down hospitals in vulnerable communities? Raise taxes on Joe Citizen? Provide only spartan care to the young, the poor, and the aged? Every potential loser will have a sympathetic case to make. And every one of them will buy an ad, except for the young and the poor. Insurance companies will have a tougher time getting anyone to feel sorry for them, but they'll eat up plenty of air time to call for preserving "choice." This is one of the most challenging debates we can have in a democracy. I'm hopeful that it will move beyond dueling 30-second ads. But they'll be a factor. (By the way, the Albany Times-Union has been doing a better job than most at clearing through the noise in the New York debate. Click here and here for more detail on what's at stake.)

 
Why recessions are so hard to predict
Forget the psychology mumbo-jumbo. The short version here. The even shorter, literacy-optional version here. 'Nuff said.

 
Real estate can only fall 10% to 20%, right? Right?
You've probably read this before: Even when housing prices slump, they don't fall all that much, at least compared to stocks and other risky investments. I've passed on this bit of "wisdom" myself. And it it's not a totally ridiculous thing to say: Even in the big California bust of the mid-1990s, prices in the L.A.-Orange County metro area fell only 20% peak to trough in the region's worst five years. That's no Nasdaq. But, well, there's a bit more to it than that.... Below is a chart I made from data in a 2005 FDIC report. It shows the worst peak-to-trough five-year nominal performance for housing prices in several markets. Sorry--the labels are a bit hard to read. (Try clicking on the chart to open it in a new window.) The blue cities are in California, the green ones are in New England. In red, dropping by as much as 40%, are "oil patch" towns, which cracked in the late 1980s right along with oil prices. It's easy enough to dismiss the evidence from the oil patch, if you want to. Prices there were forced down by an unusual, and very local, economic shock. The economies of L.A. and Boston are better diversified. Then again, if the oil boom-and-bust of the 1980s was an anomaly, what should we call the easy-credit-driven housing inflation of the early 2000s? Liar loans, interest-onlys, option ARMs, and aggressive subprime lending have changed the rules. History wouldn't seem to be a very reliable guide right now. One reason real estate prices tend to be less volatile than stocks is what housing economist Karl Case calls "downward stickiness." When prices fall, many people just decide to stay in their houses rather than cut their price low enough to make an easy sale. But that also means there's a lot human pain behind a housing decline of "just" 10%. People get stuck in their houses, and that can change their lives. There's a good story in today's USA Today about workers who can't relocate to find better jobs:

Forty-six percent of companies say recruiting employees is becoming more difficult as the housing market turns tepid, according to a 2006 survey by Prudential Relocation.

Three in 10 of those who turned down a relocation did so because of housing and mortgage concerns, according to a 2006 survey by Atlas World Group. That decision can come at a price: More than half of companies had an employee decline a relocation, and 35% of employers say turning down a move hinders an employee's career.

It's been a startling change for companies that must move employees because of corporate growth or local talent shortages. At Petco's corporate headquarters in San Diego, job candidates today want to know about relocating. The company is also doing more to supplement temporary-housing costs for employees who are transferring.

The silver lining here, I guess, is that companies are complaining about real-estate job lock, and they're shelling out a little bit to help entice reluctant workers. That means the job market is still reasonably tight, which should help the economy. If it holds. If. Update 3/15: For the record, the chart has been corrected since the initial post. (I added "5-year" to the label.) Update 3/16: Lots of good points in the comments below about the true cost of real estate losses. They should be drilled into the head of every Realtor. A few things worth expanding upon: I only have data for nominal (that is, before inflation) losses on real estate. Losses after accounting for inflation are much, much more common: The FDIC report found that since 1978, some 142 metro areas have seen real losses of over 15% over a five year period. That's compared to just the 21 cities in the chart with 15% or greater nominal declines. Even a nominal loss of 20% looks pretty small compared to nearly 60% (also nominal) for the Nasdaq in the five years after the crash. And while some houses in the LA market may have fallen more like 40%, some Nasdaq stocks went to zero. The big difference, though, is that most people have a lot more in their house than they do in the Nasdaq. And most people aren't diversified in real estate, whereas that's very easy to do with stocks. Bottom line: It's difficult to make apples-to-apples comparisons of the returns on real estate to the returns on stocks. In real life--that is, in the lives of non-professionals with a limited ability to diversify and a primary goal of purchasing shelter--equities and housing are very different assets. Beware of people in the real-estate industry who use simple average-returns comparisons to convince you that a house is an easy money machine. Finally, leverage adds to the risk of real estate. But don't forget about imputed rent. You have to live somewhere. The fact that some of your investment pays for a necessary consumption good dampens your risk exposure.

 
Talking back: Subprimes, economic catastrophe and evil robots
Lots of feedback on Monday night's subprime post. I am wrong, wrong, wrong:

Pat I would like to see you bet your entire portfolio on the chance our positive economic cycle will be extended, especially in light of the recent economic indicators showing increasing downside risk. I remember a monstrous economy called Japan and their banking environment. You should review your notes and return to the boy scout motto; Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it. Best of luck. --Mark Anthony

All you've said is that experts are not likely to be correct, let alone always right. Fair enough. But where is the substantiated evidence and reasoning to prove they are talking gibberish? The predictions re housing troubles is only wrong in one major respect: timing. As usual, things take a little longer to pan out. But I've been reading about the expected problems with subprimes and housing decline for 3 years. It's analogous to naysayers against predictions of Dow at 36,000 and New Economy before the dot com bust. Eventually gravity prevails. --Tom Ngi Pat Regnier must be hurt at his falling home price from this desperate attempt to spin this article. It is ALREADY happening, Pat... Wake up! --Andrew Johnson

For the record, I rent.

I am the sweet, chiming voice of reason:

Big Overreaction! They are confusing true Subprime with hybrid mortgage loans. True subprime has been holding the economy from a true recession.I have 24 years as owner of large mortgage firm. --Scott G.

Pat, As a longtime mortgage broker, 20 years, I read with interest - no pun intended - your story. Very good insight and humor! Tempest in a teapot. --Michael O'Connor

Good points Pat. What continues to amaze me are some of the predictions that point to complete economic catastrophe. Yesterday Bill Fleckentstein said there was about to be a credit freeze in housing. I disagree.There are certainly things to be concerned about, but a complete economic collapse is not one of them.--Nigel Swaby

Should I worry that all these guys are in the mortgage business? Hmmmm.....

Finally, Alexei Turchin of Moscow points me to a paper, "Cognitive biases potentially affecting judgment of global risks," by Eliezer Yudkowsky of something called the Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence in Palo Alto, Calif. SIAI is devoted to the development of artificial intelligence and to making sure that the thinking machines we create don't go all Matrix on us. That's right--this paper is, in part, about the risk of killer robots destroying the world! I know it sounds like I'm making fun here, but I'm not. It's a very thought-provoking little essay on how to think about risk.

Bear with me a moment: This really does have something to do with what I said Monday about the risk of subprimes bringing down the economy. Drawing on some of the same psychological literature that Philip Tetlock has, Yudkowsky lays out the basic mental errors people make when trying to predict uncertain outcomes. Then he offers this caution:
Every true idea which discomforts you will seem to match the pattern of at least one psychological error. Robert Pirsig said: "The world's biggest fool can say the sun is shining, but that doesn't make it dark out." If you believe someone is guilty of a psychological error, then demonstrate your competence by first demolishing their consequential factual errors. If there are no factual errors, then what matters the psychology? The temptation of psychology is that, knowing a little psychology, we can meddle in arguments where we have no technical expertise-- instead sagely analyzing the psychology of the disputants. ...Despite all dangers and temptations, it is better to know about psychological biases than to not know. Otherwise we will walk directly into the whirling helicopter blades of life. But be very careful not to have too much fun accusing others of biases. That is the road that leads to becoming a sophisticated arguer--someone who, faced with any discomforting argument, finds at once a bias in it. The one whom you must watch above all is yourself.
Well said. And I felt slightly chastened as I read this. On Monday, I basically said that experts like Nouriel Roubini are giving us compelling new information and telling us very vivid tales that end in the economy crumbling, but that you shouldn't get too carried away by this because even experts are often blinded by their own great stories. Yudkowsky reminds me that this kind of argument can quickly degenerate into sophistical anti-intellectualism: "Don't listen to that guy. It sounds like he actually might know something." I've been reading Roubini's blog for a while, and he clearly knows a whole lotta somethings. The counter-argument to Roubini's case is real, but sounds a bit blasé at the moment: Financial markets are mostly resilient, there's still lots of liquidity out there in world, unemployment is low, the Fed's on the case... After last week and the big market drop yesterday, Roubini's going to get a lot of credit for ringing the alarm bell on lender's insanely lax standards and the risk that posed not just to borrowers but to the whole financial system. He deserves that credit. Getting economic predictions right is to some extent a matter of luck and timing (a stopped watch and all that), but Roubini's work would have been valuable even if we weren't sitting here today wondering only how bad things are going to get. A year ago, most of the experts had convincing stories to tell about how everything would be okay. Investors and home-buyers alike needed to hear more about the risks that were building up in real estate, so that they could take steps to protect themselves. Your portfolio and your mortgage payment should never depend upon on best-case scenarios. Now I risk descending from the sophistical to the banal: Anything could always happen. Duh. But for practical purposes, this is important to keep in mind during volatile, nervous periods like this one. Let's say you find the subprime-crash = recession argument compelling. (After yesterday, I'm 70% there myself.) What would you do about that now? You probably wouldn't be buying an investment property in San Diego. And you might be reluctant to stretch much to buy a bigger house. That's prudent. But would you sell your house ASAP? Dump most of the stock funds in your 401(k) and buy gold or cash equivalents? Bad ideas. I'm not an expert on asset-backed derivatives and how pricing problems might flow through to the wider market for credit. (The whole point about yesterday is that almost nobody understands this stuff very well, including the owners.) But I have spent my entire career covering people who make their living predicting market trends in hopes of investing ahead of them. I've seen the smart ones get it wrong, and not-so-smart ones get wildly lucky. The problem with market predictions isn't that people make factual or even psychological errors, but that markets are very, very complex. The pros struggle with this, and they have a lot more information and money to play with than we civilians do. I hope that a month ago your financial plan took account of the possibility of a housing-led recession; I hope that your financial plan today will work to your advantage if the market survives this bout of volatility. If you did it right, between then and now you shouldn't have had to change much. Photo of Michael Smith's robot collection by Michael Smith

 
National health care is aready in the cards. And it will be lousy.
The chart below is based on projections by Boston University's Laurence Kotlikoff, presented in his new paper, "Staticide: America's Suicidal Status Quo." Kotlikoff is comparing the present value of all future government health benefits to the present value of all future gross domestic product. (Present value is what you would pay today in exchange for money at a future date.) Lots of caveats apply here: Projections like this are extremely sensitive to the guesses you make about future trends, as well as to the discount rate you use to come up with the present value figures. For these projections, Kotlikoff assumed health care benefit spending would grow at the rate it has since 1970 for the next four decades, and then grow on pace with per capita GDP thereafter. So these numbers are really just a warning of what would happen if we stick to our present course. But what a warning. The other countries on this chart all have something approaching universal health care. But all Kotlikoff is measuring for the U.S. is projected spending on Medicaid and Medicare. "The U.S. is, under stated assumptions, on a course to spend close to one fifth of all future output (measured in the present) on two health care programs that, to repeat, cover only a minority of the population," writes Kotlikoff. That's right: We'll get all the cost and big government associated with universal care, only without the universal part. Maybe we could do better. Don't you think?

 
Is this the subprime apocalypse? (Or is it just a scary story?)
In February, I posted here about Roubini Global Economics' prediction that defaults in subprime mortgages would ripple through the financial system and set off a recession. The next week, the stock market tanked, and lots people blamed subprimes. What's the link between subprimes and the rest of us? Here's how I summed it up last month:
[The] argument is pretty simple: Mortgage borrowers with the worst credit are defaulting, and the financial institutions that own these loans are taking a hit they didn't see coming. That's going to make them more cautious about lending money--and not just to subprime borrowers, but even to those of us with sparkling credit scores. What's more, Roubini observes, even many prime borrowers are low on savings and haven't had a serious raise for a while. And falling real estate values have taken some of the air out of their home equity. Stir this witches brew together long enough and you get a very unhappy consumer. We're about due for an economic slowdown as it is. Roubini thinks the credit crunch might turn that slowdown into a "hard landing."
Actually, I oversimplified things a little bit here. You might, while reading this, picture in your head a single bank that has given out some loans to prime borrowers, and some other loans to subprime borrowers. When the subprime borrowers start missing payments, a nervous bank president looks at his balance sheet and calls the head loan officer and tells him to tighten up lending requirements across the board. While that's not a bad way to think about it, in reality we're not talking about individual banks but an entire financial system. Banks sell their mortgages, which get bundled into trade-able securities, which in turn become the raw material for all manner of fancy financial derivatives. This stuff ends up on the books of mutual funds, hedge funds, insurance companies, pension funds, etc. (Yes, I'm oversimplifying here, too.) Yesterday in the New York Times, Gretchen Morgenson painted a vivid, rather scary picture of this market, strongly suggesting that it's set to go pop! in our faces any day now. Felix Salmon raises some questions about the Times analysis here. So what's going to happen? I dunno. But when I'm weighing the likelihood of a prediction coming true--or worse, making a prediction myself--I try to remember some of what I've learned from psychologist Philip Tetlock. He's made a study of expert predictions, and he's found that they really aren't very good. They do about as well, he says, as "the moderately attentive reader of good newspapers." That doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to experts like Roubini; you just shouldn't overvalue them. But what's even more interesting about Tetlock's work is why experts make mistakes. One problem experts tend to have is loquacious overconfidence: They have a lot of information, so they can put together very convincing stories to describe extreme outcomes. Tetlock also found that experts were more likely to predict extreme events if they were forced to imagine specific story-lines. For example, they were more likely to predict the disintegration of Canada if they were asked to put odds on a set of scenarios--such as an economic downturn, combined with political victories for Quebec separatists--than they were if they were just asked about the chances Canada breaking up. Imagination is powerful. I'm no expert. But three weeks ago, if you had asked me whether subprime mortages were a threat to the economy I would have shrugged and said, "Ehhhh.... probably not." Statistically, that's a fairly safe response. The status quo has a way of staying that way, give or take. But in the past few weeks I've been reading Roubini, Morgenson and Salmon, and blogs like Calculated Risk. I'm talking about this stuff at the office, and I'm following the anxious comments on the subject on this blog. I'm learning all about CDOs, HELs, AltAs and the ABX. (Three weeks ago, if Alex Trebek had asked me what those were, I'd have answered, "What are the worst fraternities in Urbana-Champaign?") I have lots of information now. Suddenly, the possibility of a housing credit crunch that breaks the economy is much more vivid to me. That doesn't necessarily mean it is any more likely. Update 3/14: See my new post for more on our credit-cruch conversation.

 
The "Fairtax": Not the easy answer
When I bring up taxes on this blog, inevitably the conversation in the comments turns to the "FairTax." It's simple! Just replace today's complex, costly system with a national retail sales tax. Says Jan in Atlanta:
Easy solution to it all: implement the Fair Tax (www.fairtax.org). This incredibly well-studied system of taxation would eliminate the AMT, eliminate the IRS and all the costs associated with tax collection, and implement a consumption tax instead of an income tax, so each individual can control his taxation amount by controlling how much he spends. This way people would no longer get punished by excessive taxation for providing value to society.
The FairTax has a surprisingly strong base of activist supporters. They get a lot right: The current tax code really is a mess, and taxing consumption instead of just income could solve a lot of problems. But I seriously doubt the FairTax--or rather, the version of a sales tax that could actually get passed--would work nearly as smoothly as its supporters think. I wrote this in 2005:
Many mainstream economists and tax experts like the idea of some kind of consumption tax -- in fact, the superiority of consumption taxes is almost conventional wisdom these days.

But many of the same people point to serious problems with the FairTax plan. (A sales tax is just one way to levy a consumption tax. Competing plans include the European-style value-added tax, or VAT, as well as variations on the flat tax Steve Forbes made famous.)

Critics claim the FairTax has two major flaws: It wouldn't work in practice and, even if it did, it wouldn't raise enough money. The first problem has to do with the fact that people cheat on their taxes; they do it now, and they'd find ways to do it under a sales tax. With all of the taxes we'd owe being lumped into one big sales tax, lots of people might be tempted to try evading it, with black markets springing up everywhere.

Joel Slemrod of the University of Michigan's Office of Tax Policy Research says that only six countries in the world have tried to collect a sales tax north of 10 percent, and four of them eventually adopted alternatives like a VAT. Consumers might also be unpleasantly surprised by all the things that get taxed: Not just milk at the grocery store, but legal fees, rent on an apartment, even health-care expenses.

[Congressman and FairTax sponsor John] Linder [R-Ga.] says the administrative problems with a sales tax have been over-blown. Really, he asks, is your local big box store going to help you cheat on your taxes? And the FairTax frees millions from filing tax returns and gets the hated IRS out of their lives.

"I want a system that doesn't have an agency that knows more about you than you are willing to tell your own family," says Linder. This is crucial. FairTaxers seem to care as much, if not more, about getting rid of the IRS as they do about the economic and budgetary impact of reform....

A knottier problem is what the rate would have to be.

The FairTax bill pegs it at 23 percent in order to fund the government at current levels without raising the deficit. (If you think of the FairTax like a state or local sales tax, you'd say that this is a markup of 30 percent on prices at the store. See the chart above.) But economist William Gale of the Brookings Institution says that this number is way, way too low. "They're telling kind of a big lie about tax reform," he says.

Gale calculates that a 23 percent rate would blow a $7 trillion hole in the budget over 10 years, and that a more realistic rate is 31 percent, and higher still if you allow for evasion. And if lobbyists convince lawmakers to exempt things like health care or other necessities--a real possibility, given the culture of Washington--the gap looks even bigger.

FairTaxers respond that Gale isn't taking into account the huge economic growth they believe would occur once the tax system started encouraging investment. And besides, they add, whatever rate you'd pay is comparable to what you now pay. Counting Social Security and payroll taxes, your marginal rate may be north of 30 percent. "To talk about [sales tax rates] independent of what we're currently facing is slightly unprofessional," says Boston University economist and FairTax supporter Laurence Kotlikoff, speaking of Gale.

Kotlikoff has recently written a paper claiming that Gale was wrong and 23% really is the right figure. This is based on a complex set of calculations and data crunching, and I'm not going to try and guess who's right. But in a recent AEI debate, Gale argued that even if Kotlikoff's baseline number is right, it's still based on some optimistic assumptions about tax evasion and ignores legislative erosion--that is, the tendency of legislators to create more and more exceptions and loopholes. Kotlikoff and Gale are both good economists, but I think Gale is especially persuasive in his judgement of how Washington works.

 
The two new taxes you'll be paying by 2027
I dropped by the New School University this morning to see a panel discussion on the state of the U.S. economy. The line-up included Nobel Prize winning economist Robert Solow, CNBC's Larry Kudlow, economist and superblogger Brad DeLong, and Robert Hormats of Goldman Sachs. Former Nebraska Senator Bob Kerrey, the president of the New School, moderated. The general view from the panel was that the economy is in fairly decent shape, but that during the Bush administration we've squandered an opportunity to invest for the future and to improve our fiscal health. I'm guessing "Goldilocks" Kudlow doesn't sign on to the second half of that formulation, but I came in near the end of his opening remarks and he left before the discussion really opened up. That's a shame--it might have been a fun debate to watch. In any case, I picked up some interesting insights: Consumption taxes are coming. That's the forecast, at least, of panelist Robert Shapiro, a former undersecretary of Commerce during the Clinton administration. He thinks we're likely to see two additional federal taxes imposed in the next 20 years. First, a carbon tax to address global warming. Second, a "value added" tax just to pay for Medicare. "Under anything like the current political constraints, we will have to find enormous new resources to pay for Medicare," he said. "And that's how you get to a VAT." A VAT is similar to a sales tax, except that the money is collected from all the businesses involved in making and distributing a good. (To a consumer, it can still look exactly like sales tax, depending on the design.) According to Taxing Ourselves by Joel Slemrod and Jon Bakija, almost every other industrialized nation uses a VAT. Shapiro's prediction for a Medicare VAT sounds pretty plausible. Of maybe it will be a bigger, broader Health Care VAT. As another panelist, Julie Kosterlitz of the National Journal, observed, polls suggest that most Americans would be willing to pay higher taxes in exchange for universal health coverage. And Kerrey, the long-time politician, said that the public is usually more accepting of taxes that are earmarked for a specific purpose. As I pointed out in an earlier post, if future tax hikes come in the form of consumption taxes, you'll pay them even if you stashed your savings in a Roth account. Maybe that's another reason for lawmakers to like them. Yes, China could be a problem. China has been lending us lots and lots of money, which in turn has made it easier for us to buy all their t-shirts, blenders and televisions. They do this even though our dollar is clearly overvalued; as its value falls, so will China's return on its loans to us. Most observers think that won't be a problem--the imbalance will unwind slowly as China's economy matures. You'll also hear that a falling dollar really isn't so bad, since it would boost the overseas demand for goods manufactured here. (We do still do that.) But DeLong pointed out that what matters here is velocity. What if China really isn't okay with lousy returns on its dollar-denominated assets? And what if it realizes this, as DeLong vividly put it, "in the middle of the night," in a panic? A fast decline in the dollar would still boost foreign demand for the stuff we make, but to benefit we'd have to shift a whole lot of our workforce out of the service and construction sectors (which would be hurting) and back into manufacturing. Just how quickly can we retrain interior decorators and Home Depot managers and turn them into auto workers? DeLong said he isn't betting on such a catastrophe. He was suggesting that we need some "fire insurance," just in case. Since I don't think State Farm wants to write the entire U.S. economy a policy, the only "insurance" would be to get the budget in better shape. DeLong's analysis poses a bit of a problem for liberals. (DeLong worked in the Clinton administration.) People like Paul Krugman and James Galbraith are arguing that Democrats should lose their obsession with balanced budgets, so that they can get big things done if they win all the marbles in 2008. And it's true that deficits aren't always so terrible. But this would have been an easier case to make in 2000. As it stands today, deficit spending for health care, education or the rest of the Democrats' wish list will have be piled on top of the deficits generated by what DeLong calls Bush's "three big projects:" tax cuts, the war, and Medicare Part D. Why you can't afford New York real estate, part 2. Bob Kerrey said that on the island of Manhattan, 16% percent of the population works in finance or insurance, but that those people earn 65% of the borough's income. I'm not sure where he's getting those numbers, but they certainly sound about right. One common response to concerns about rising inequality is to say that it's just a side-effect of our incredible system of higher education. The economic return for going to college or graduate school is very high--and who would really want it to be otherwise? Well, New York has no shortage of educated people. You can't swing a cat on 14th Street without hitting five or six people with advanced degrees. But a Ph.D. and six bucks will just about buy you a Metrocard in this town. Teachers, nurses and scientists--productive people with lots of training--are barely hanging on here. It's important to reward people who invest in their brains, but is it just maybe possible we're rewarding the narrow slice of smart people who invest in MBAs a little too much?

 
Reversing the First Law of Blogodynamics
Hey, Patriot-News of Harrisburg, PA, it's supposed to be blogs that raid newspapers for material! (See last post.) Not that I'm complaining.
EDITORIALS ANGRY FOLKS: Day of reckoning on its way with stratospheric tax hikes There are some truly mean-spirited people on the Internet. Take this from James in Monument, Colo.:

"Let me offer my personal thanks to the worst generation (the baby boomers). You have [mismanaged] this country royally and we, your children, would like to tell you what to do with yourselves. Thanks for all the debt and irresponsibility. I hope your nursing homes treat you like crap."

What did Mom and Dad do to this guy? Spend his inheritance?

Well, yes, in a manner of speaking.

James in Monument was responding to Money senior editor Pat Regnier, writing on the "Generation Risk" blog (which can be found at www.cnnmoney.com). Regnier was offered this interesting bit of advice by Robert Gordon of Twenty-First Securities in New York City: "Draw a chart of tax rates -- if that was a stock, you'd buy it now."

In other words, taxes are headed for the stratosphere.

Click here for the rest of the editorial. You might even be quoted in it.

 
Alternative minimum blame
At yesterday's House hearing on the alternative minimum tax, Republicans blamed Bill Clinton for the ever-expanding reach of the AMT. (More on that here.) I suspect they were channeling this Wall Street Journal editorial:

Remember the 1993 tax hike that was supposed to fall only on the rich? In addition to raising gas taxes and Medicare payroll taxes and income tax rates, the Democratic Congress that year also raised the AMT: from a 24% flat rate to a dual tax rate of 26% on AMT income up to $175,000 and 28% on AMT income above that amount.

It's true that the 1993 bill slightly increased the AMT's family income exemption, but Democrats refused to index those exemptions for inflation. So the combination of the higher rates and the failure to index for inflation has caught more and more middle-class taxpayers in the AMT's maw. From 1992 to 2002, this Clinton stealth tax hike increased sixfold the number of filers paying the AMT, to nearly two million from 300,000.

A Joint Tax Committee (JTC) analysis requested last year by Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa shows that about 11 million more Americans will have to pay the AMT next year thanks to the higher post-1993 AMT rates.
Here's a response to that argument from Wayne State University tax law prof Linda Beale, who blogs at ataxingmatter.blogs.com. (The emphasis is hers.)
The Journal blames Clinton for the AMT because the Clinton administration did the sensible thing--when top rates were raised, the AMT rates were raised as well so that the AMT could continue to function parallel to the regular system the way it was intended to. (Clinton also increased the AMT exemption--permanently, unlike the Bush Congress.) If the Bush administration had applied the same logic that the Clinton administration applied, it would have lowered the AMT rates (and again increased the exemption permanently, because of inflation) when it lowered the regular tax rates, so that the AMT would have continued to function parallel to the regular system in the way it was intended to.
Discuss...

 
How the AMT might doom Bush's tax cuts
A House Ways and Means subcommittee held hearings on the fixing the alternative minimum tax this afternoon. My colleague Jeanne Sahadi wrote a clear and concise guide to the options lawmakers have in dealing with the AMT mess, which you can read here. Check out this chart, which is based on data from the Joint Committee on Taxation. The blue line is how many people will be snagged by the AMT under current law. The red line is how many people will have to pay it if the 2001 rate reductions are renewed. (They are set to "sunset" in 2011.) Extending the tax cuts will dramatically increase the number of people who will have to deal with two separate tax systems, even as fewer and fewer people enjoy the benefits of the cuts. That's because without those tax cuts, more people would have a high enough tax under the regular system that they wouldn't be moved into the AMT. One thing to be clear about: This chart does not mean that the Bush tax cuts will actually raise the taxes of those who end up on the AMT. As Alan Viard of the American Enterprise Institute explains in his Ways and Means testimony today:
Suppose that, without [the recent tax laws], a hypothetical taxpayer would have a $100 tax liability under regular tax rules and a $90 tax liability under AMT rules. The taxpayer would then be on the regular income tax and would have a $100 tax liability. Suppose that those laws reduce the taxpayer’s liability under regular tax rules to $85 while leaving his or her liability under AMT rules unchanged at $90. Because liability under the AMT rules is now higher than the liability under the regular tax rules, the taxpayer moves onto the AMT and has a $90 tax liability.

Although these laws cause the taxpayer to move onto the AMT, they do not raise his or her tax liability, relative to prior law. On the contrary, the laws reduce the taxpayer’s liability from $100 to $90. Moving onto the AMT merely reduces the size of the tax cut, which would have been $15 without the AMT, to $10. In colloquial terms, the AMT “takes back” one-third of this taxpayer’s tax cut.

Even so, the AMT clearly erodes the constituency for extending the tax cuts. Not to mention driving people crazy. Update 3/8: Want to pin the AMT mess on the Republicans? Or maybe on the Democrats? Check out my post, "Alternative minimum blame."

 
Generation Risk, meet Generation Chain-Smoking Ennui
We journalists love giving names to generations.* It's a bad habit, but hard to resist once you get started. Just yesterday, I pronounced my children members of Generation Won't-Use-The-Potty. I think I've identified a powerful demographic trend among the 2-and-under set--I could give you more than three examples--but I'm hoping it's not a durable one. The international edition of Newsweek has a story on "The Lost Youth of Europe." (Hat tip to the highly useful Informed Reader.) According to the article, the kids of baby boomers are locked out of good jobs and can't afford decent homes. We also learn that Europeans, too, have a flair for demographic shorthand. In France, 20- and 30-somethings are known as "Génération Précaire," or the Precarious Generation. In the UK, they're the Boomerang Generation, Maggie's Children (that's as in Thatcher), and (ugh) IPODs--insecure, pressured, over-taxed and debt-ridden. In Germany, it's Generation Intern, because so many young folks can't snag permanent gigs. Anything we can learn from this? You could use it as an argument against expanding the social safety net here--the Newsweek story says that "the same labor rules that protect the jobs of the middle-aged shut out the young [and] dwindling birthrates mean there will soon be fewer workers to support the retirees." But the U.S. is a long way from looking like France, and we'd still have one of the most flexible economies in the developed world if we adopted universal health care and, say, wage insurance. The European experience does show that there's a downside to booming housing markets. (I mean besides the occasional crashes.) Says Newsweek:
Across the continent, spiraling property prices and poor job prospects are conspiring to keep youngsters living at home. According to the Italian Institute of Social Medicine, 45 percent of the country's 30- to 34-year-olds still sleep in their old beds and enjoy Mama's home cooking. In France, the proportion of 24-year-olds now living with their parents has almost doubled since 1975, to 65 percent. Even in the U.K., with its enviable record of job creation, the average age of the first-time home buyer has climbed from 26 in 1976 to 34 today. Property prices are now eight times higher than the median earnings of the ordinary twentysomething.
I lived in the U.K. for a couple of years, and even to an expatriate New Yorker the real estate market seemed insane. (Back in the five boroughs, we have not yet felt the need to come up with a slang term equivalent to the British "gazump"--meaning to accept a bid on your house and then renege upon receiving a better offer. As in, "I thought I had that flat in Rising Damp Mews, but I was gazumped.") So I was interested to read the work of economist Andrew Oswald of the University of Warwick, who contends that encouraging more and more home-ownership can be counterproductive. Oswald writes:
High home-ownership levels block young workers' ability to enter an area to find a job: if we look at countries like Spain, with its 80% home ownership rate, a key part of the problem is young jobless people living at home, unable to move out because the rental sector hardly exists any more. Here the difficulty is not that unemployed people are home owners; it is that unemployed men and women cannot move to the appropriate areas. Inefficiencies caused by high home-ownership rates impair the creation of jobs in more subtle ways. In an economy in which people are immobile, workers do jobs for which they are not ideally suited.... The resulting inefficiency is harmful: it raises the costs of production and lowers real incomes.
On the other hand, of course, home-ownership has given middle-class people a chance to build a nest-egg over time, and probably encourages more stable communities. But it's always possible to have too much of a good thing--whether you're talking about the European Dream of job security and income stability or the American Dream of owning a home. *Note: Obviously, this isn't the post on the Medicare funding gap I foolishly promised in my last post. That's still in the works.

 
Just how big is the federal debt?
Depends what you mean by "debt." 60 Minutes ran a Steve Kroft report last night about David Walker, the comptroller general of the United States. Basically, he's our accountant. Walker has been traveling the country warning that we're headed for a fiscal meltdown. In response, economist Dean Baker, blogging for the liberal journal American Prospect, unleashes his fists of fury:
60 Minutes declared war tonight on Social Security and Medicare.... [I]f they wanted to be accurate, the 60 Minutes crew could have pointed out that almost the whole horror story is driven by projections of exploding health care costs, not "entitlements" for the elderly (e.g. Social Security). As is clear to anyone who is moderately competent at arithmetic, the projected budget problems are due to a projected explosion in health care costs, not demographics. If U.S. health care costs were more in line with those in any other wealthy country, there wouldn't be much of a budget crisis to talk about.
I missed the show tonight, but if the web version of the story is any reflection of what viewers saw, the 60 Minutes crew actually does say that health care is the 800 lbs. gorilla here:
Part of the problem, Walker acknowledges, is that there won't be enough wage earners to support the benefits of the baby boomers. "But the real problem, Steve, is health care costs. Our health care problem is much more significant than Social Security," he says. Asked what he means by that, Walker tells Kroft, "By that I mean that the Medicare problem is five times greater than the Social Security problem." The problem with Medicare, Walker says, is people keep living longer, and medical costs keep rising at twice the rate of inflation....
So Baker and Walker agree, I think, that the way we pay for health care is basically ridiculous and that we can't afford to sustain our current spending patterns. The question is, what do we call this problem? Is this a fiscal crisis? Or a health care crisis? This sounds like an abstruse philosophical debate, but it has enormous political and practical implications. If you add the projected cost of future Medicare benefits to the basic federal debt and other obligations, you get some mind-bogglingly big numbers--in the neighborhood of $50 trillion. (See the slide from one of Walker's talks at left.) That's one way to ring the alarm bell, I suppose. Maybe all this bankruptcy talk will eventually get voters and policymakers focused on fixing the health care system, so that those projections don't come true. But talking about this primarily as an accounting problem--too much going out, not enough coming in--can confuse as much as it clarifies. The government could, in theory, solve most of its balance sheet woes by simply phasing out the Medicare program. But this country would still have a health-care financing mess. That's Baker's point. So should we just call it a health care crisis? More on that in my next a coming post....

 
Want to lower government spending? Raise taxes.
I hesitate to open this particular can of worms, but there was a debate over the "FairTax" at the American Enterprise Institute this week. You national sales tax geeks out there--you know who you are, and I love ya!--can listen to it here. But this post isn't about the "FairTax". It's about something interesting William Gale, an economist at Brookings Institution, pointed out during the debate:
We had an episode earlier in this decade where the government cut taxes, and one of the arguments was that this was going to force Congress to cut spending. Exactly the opposite happened. Spending skyrocketed. Historically, that has been the pattern. When we cut taxes spending goes up, and when we raise taxes we cut spending and impose fiscal discipline on both sides of the budget. That's what happened in the 1990s.
So what's up with that? Why hasn't "starving the beast" worked? William Niskanen of the libertarian Cato Institute has suggested a possible explanation: Cutting taxes makes government cheaper--for now, anyway--and people usually want more of something when it gets cheaper. In other news: The folks at the Wall Street Journal editorial page really should debunk this.

 
Why you can't afford New York real estate
Maybe it's because you'd be bidding against this guy. To whoever left this at the Cafe Duke ATM: You won't be keeping that money for long if you keep paying those $1.75 terminal fees. You know your bank charges you an extra dollar on top of that, right? (Thanks to my colleague Sam Grobart for stumbling on this and donating it to Generation Risk.)

Or feel free to send a letter to the editor about this story. Top of page


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But many of the same people point to serious problems with the FairTax plan. (A sales tax is just one way to levy a consumption tax. Competing plans include the European-style value-added tax, or VAT, as well as variations on the flat tax Steve Forbes made famous.)

Critics claim the FairTax has two major flaws: It wouldn't work in practice and, even if it did, it wouldn't raise enough money. The first problem has to do with the fact that people cheat on their taxes; they do it now, and they'd find ways to do it under a sales tax. With all of the taxes we'd owe being lumped into one big sales tax, lots of people might be tempted to try evading it, with black markets springing up everywhere.

Joel Slemrod of the University of Michigan's Office of Tax Policy Research says that only six countries in the world have tried to collect a sales tax north of 10 percent, and four of them eventually adopted alternatives like a VAT. Consumers might also be unpleasantly surprised by all the things that get taxed: Not just milk at the grocery store, but legal fees, rent on an apartment, even health-care expenses.

[Congressman and FairTax sponsor John] Linder [R-Ga.] says the administrative problems with a sales tax have been over-blown. Really, he asks, is your local big box store going to help you cheat on your taxes? And the FairTax frees millions from filing tax returns and gets the hated IRS out of their lives.

"I want a system that doesn't have an agency that knows more about you than you are willing to tell your own family," says Linder. This is crucial. FairTaxers seem to care as much, if not more, about getting rid of the IRS as they do about the economic and budgetary impact of reform....

A knottier problem is what the rate would have to be.

The FairTax bill pegs it at 23 percent in order to fund the government at current levels without raising the deficit. (If you think of the FairTax like a state or local sales tax, you'd say that this is a markup of 30 percent on prices at the store. See the chart above.) But economist William Gale of the Brookings Institution says that this number is way, way too low. "They're telling kind of a big lie about tax reform," he says.

Gale calculates that a 23 percent rate would blow a $7 trillion hole in the budget over 10 years, and that a more realistic rate is 31 percent, and higher still if you allow for evasion. And if lobbyists convince lawmakers to exempt things like health care or other necessities--a real possibility, given the culture of Washington--the gap looks even bigger.

FairTaxers respond that Gale isn't taking into account the huge economic growth they believe would occur once the tax system started encouraging investment. And besides, they add, whatever rate you'd pay is comparable to what you now pay. Counting Social Security and payroll taxes, your marginal rate may be north of 30 percent. "To talk about [sales tax rates] independent of what we're currently facing is slightly unprofessional," says Boston University economist and FairTax supporter Laurence Kotlikoff, speaking of Gale.

Kotlikoff has recently written a paper claiming that Gale was wrong and 23% really is the right figure. This is based on a complex set of calculations and data crunching, and I'm not going to try and guess who's right. But in a recent AEI debate, Gale argued that even if Kotlikoff's baseline number is right, it's still based on some optimistic assumptions about tax evasion and ignores legislative erosion--that is, the tendency of legislators to create more and more exceptions and loopholes. Kotlikoff and Gale are both good economists, but I think Gale is especially persuasive in his judgement of how Washington works.|W|P|117362543932954104|W|P|The "Fairtax": Not the easy answer|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/12/2007 04:09:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If it were not for the interest payments on all that national debt (interest payments alone - not including principal), I calculate that the national sales tax could have been 19.5%. Those of you who say the national debt isn't important, remember that next time you claim it doesn't matter.

If the military budget were set at 2% of GDP like most other industrialised nations, the sales tax could be reduced to 20%.

If the budget were set at 2% of GDP, and there were no interest payments needed on a national debt, the sales tax could be 17.2%.

A sales tax could be better implemented by establishing a two-tier sales tax: one between the distributor and retailer (say, 12%), and one at the retail sale level of 10%. A 10% sales tax at the point of sale may be far more palatable.

Having said all that, I think a national sales tax is a bad idea. A flat tax with a largish standard deduction that minimizes its effect on lower-income people would be a much better way to go. Just for the sake of argument, we could say a standard $12,000 deduction ($24,000 for married couples) and $3,600 per child. Those are just some numbers out of thin air for argument's sake.3/13/2007 01:22:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Brandon,

a. By your spelling of the word industralised I take it you are a Brit. Nothing wrong with that, but quite honestly I don't need to hear your views on US taxation policy.

b. The reason the rest of the world's military budget is 2% of GDP is precisely because the US's is much higher.

So you go back to your graduate poli-sci classes at U of M. You keep dreaming about a world where we have bake sales for the military and let the real world issues be taken care of by adults.3/13/2007 01:33:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Pat,
You're very wrong about cheating under the FairTax. Since this tax only applies to new products, for the most part, cheating would involve first THEFT and then tax evasion. Use your head for heaven sakes. What on earth would any manufacturer or vendor stand to gain by NOT collecting the FairTax? I suppose they could charge a price that included the FairTax, but not turn the taxes over to the government; but, exactly how hard would THIS be to detect? Compared to illegal AND legal evasion going on under the current code, cheating under the FairTax would be absolutely miniscule. Fact is nearly every American filing a long form cheats. If they not cheating by definition, then they're guilty of defeating the "spirit and intent of the law". For instance people write off vacation travel expenses by going on an job interview during their vacation. The IRS simply can't prove they never intended to take the jobs, can they? The list is beyond comprehension.
As for not collecting enough revenue, is, or could there EVER enough revenue for our insatiable government? Honestly, if the revenue is truly short, congress simply raises the FairTax percentage; what could be easier? It's not only fair, it's honest and transparent. Unfortunately, these are qualities not found in ANY program or responsibility EVER undertaken by our government. That's why we'll never have the FairTax. The rest is simply an extraneous and irrelevant smokescreen...paulb3/13/2007 01:39:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Brandon,
Please read the FairTax proposal before making such ridiculous comments. The FairTax proposes a "prebate" so that no one pays any tax until they've spent more than the inflation adjusted "poverty level". It is NOT regressive in any way...paulb3/13/2007 01:57:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Finally, let us get on with some other news other than the sub-prime real estate deal. Hopefully there is more financial news than sub-prime, enough is enough!3/13/2007 02:18:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Your paragraph describing the "whole financial system" probably holds the key. Are we talking about a "chain reaction" that will cause a lot of pain? Or is this an example of a portfolio approach where the risk is spread across a wide base. I think it is the latter. The US financial system has taken some hits such as the Savings & Loan crisis a couple of decades back and survived.3/13/2007 02:28:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I am now retired and living on a pension and my savings which are giving me divedends and interesr. I am spending not oly my gains, but the principal which I ALREADY HAVE PAID TAXIS. Under any of these scheems I will be doubly taxed. Any scheem of saving recipts, and other paperwork makes the systen as compex as it is now thus eleminating one of its arguments. If thgere was a VAT or cosumption tax on investements over a certan value could make it attrractive.
In addition people would buy thara yachts, say it is needed for busisness, and get away with everything,3/13/2007 02:47:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|A Fair Tax of 30%+ is ludricous and insane! Add to that state sales tax, tax of gasoline, SS, and medicare and we all would be paying 50%+ tax. This tax would give the Feds so much money (about $3 trillion) that they would "know what to do with it" (waste it as usual). The IRS is an outdated agency that needs to be eliminated. We need some sort of fair tax system, bur not a system that wouyld cripple the average American family. I think a Federal Straight Line tax rate of about 20% is about right, however, a caveat that "no additional form of tax would be levied on each citizen"...My wife and I currently net about 60% of our gross income; when sales tax, excise taxes, and tips are figure into our net income, it approches 50% of our gross. I have spent over 400 personal hours doing my Federal taxes this year-this country is quickly killing itself via mismanagment and awful planning. I think a streamlining of congress is also in the offing!3/13/2007 03:28:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|#1 reason why a NST won't work: " it's still based on some optimistic assumptions about tax evasion and ignores legislative erosion--that is, the tendency of legislators to create more and more exceptions and loopholes."

How else will politicians get their donations?3/13/2007 03:55:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Get rid of the current tax system and the IRS. While the fair tax sounds interesting it isn't the answer either. I believe we should have a standardized flat tax so that everyone pays the same percentage of their income. Whether you make 10 or 100K you pay the set rate, period. No loopholes, no tax avoidance, no politicians lying about it, and most of all no mega-bureaucracy trying to decipher it all. Maybe then we could get something done.3/13/2007 05:04:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|"Fair tax".....what a waste of time....like the politicians are going to give up their main source of power.3/13/2007 05:20:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Regressive and promotes too much saving which would overly reduce velocity of money.3/13/2007 05:27:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Paul B. Blanch:
I didn't make a complaint about the FairTax(tm) being regressive. My problem with it is that no one will pay a 23% sales tax at the register. I did, however, make a suggestion about a two-tier system of sales taxation that might be more palatable. Perhaps you ought to actually read what I say before you make such "ridiculous comments"?3/13/2007 06:06:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Ed from Las Vegas:
I'm not a Brit, and am, in fact, a full American born and raised here. I have every right to make any comment I would like about U.S. taxation policy. Don't make idiotic assumptions. I do, however, have a preference for the Queen's English.

Also, I have no idea what you're trying to say with your comment, "The reason the rest of the world's military budget is 2% of GDP is precisely because the US's is much higher."
The U.S.'s military spending is approaching 5% of our GDP. Around the world, most industrialised nations spend about 2% of their GDP on their military. Britain and France are the "big spenders" outside of the U.S., each at about 2.5% of their respective GDP's.

Now, I am also not a graduate student at U of M (though I do hold a graduate degree). Your arrogant comment about "let the real world issues be taken care of by adults" is completely uncalled for, immature, and - if anything - demonstrates that you're clearly not one of the adults who should be discussing real world issues.3/13/2007 06:18:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why is the supposition generally made that the fruits of our labor belong to the government at current tax levels regardless of the tax structure. Any system that makes it obvious how grossly overtaxed we are deserves consideration. Is there a moral or ethical foundation for disguising from people what taxes they are actually forced to pay. The biggest problem with FairTax is that it will be implemented without rescinding any of the taxes it is meant to replace.3/13/2007 06:39:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Fair Tax my posterior! Think of the person who has saved diligently for an entire career, paid taxes on the earnings that he has saved and on the investments he has made, and is ready to retire. Now he gets to pay taxes all over again as he spends his savings.3/13/2007 07:08:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|First of all you have to remember something. For less than 2 billion dollars the IRS collects over 3 trillion dollars in taxes. Not bad huh?
Second, what would a sales tax do to our economy? Maybe not forever, but at least for the first 6 months or so.
Third, if you examine the VAT in most European countries, there are ways around the tax, like buying a six pack of beer instead of a single.
Finally, The people that use money to feel powerful, especially someone else's money, have no problems creating new taxes, giving up old methods appears to be very painful.3/15/2007 10:18:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Anyone who advocates a VAT has obviously never lived in a tax regime where they had to pay a VAT as a business nor do they understand the mechanics of a VAT except at the Walmart checkout. I lived in Jamaica for 18 years and they instituted a VAT as a similar miracle cure. (Sweden instituted a VAT in 1967 of 2% and promised to revoke it when they were solvent. It now stands at about 23%.)Problem is, a business person has to pay VAT on the full price of an item and then petition the government for the refund of that portion they didn't add value to and wait for the government to send the refund. Yes, you read that correctly even if it didn't make sense. THAT is how a VAT works for everyone but the consumer. It spawns this massive bureacracy that puts the IRS to shame and makes over-payers (read everyone) lenders to the government. This is the nastiest, most confusing tax regime imaginable condensed into a few sentences. Being condensed into a few sentences doesn't make it sensible. It only makes it short to explain.
My suggestion (and this is copyrighted, patent-pending and trademarked so I can get my royalties)is based in part on an historical precedent. When the Mongol hordes occupied a country the deal was they wanted 10% of your gross. Period. If you messed up they ate your children, did unspeakable things to your women, left your mother-in-law alive etc. Very powerful incentives for paying up. (With an anecdotal aside to Jamaica again- when I was there during the Communist/Socialist years duties were 174%. When the good guys took office, they harmonized tariffs at 10%. They both collected the same amount of money- on the same goods. That should tell you about the incentives for evasion.) Anyway re the "Ghengis Khan" tax- everyone pays 10%. Period. Or the government eats your children.I don't care if you are an elderly, blind, gay priest with an African father and a native American mother and have nine kids- 10%. Nor do I care if you are GE or Halliburton or based in Abu Dhabi- 10%. You made 10 mil last year. Move the decimal point one place. One mil please. Sold your house? 10%. Bought a house? One of you pays 10%. Stocks? 10%. Bonds? 10%. Inheritance? 10%. Bag of wood screws and some tarpaper? 10%. Every step of the way. Every transaction. Every transfer. Every sale. Period. Or we eat your kids. No deductions. No exemptions. No paperwork or formulas. Move the decimal point. Period.
How does that stack up mathematically? (I'm a mathematician) If the velocity of money in an economy is about 6 to 1, a dollar is going to generate about 60% in revenue through a year although each transaction is only 10%. Sort of an additive effect. Actually it is more complicated. For example: Manufacturer A sells his product (a component) to Manufacturer B for $1.10. "A" gets $1 and Uncle Sam gets 10 cents. Manufacturer B polishes this component and sells it to Manufacurer C for $2.20. "B" gets $2 and Uncle Sam gets 20 cents. Manufacurer C irradiates it with Gamma rays to make it more healthy and sells it to Wholesaler D for $3.30. "C" gets $3 and Uncle Sam gets 30 cents. Wholesaler D sells it to Retailer E for $4.40. (Do you detect a pattern yet?) "D" gets his $4 and Uncle Sam gets 40 cents. The retailer sells this gizmo to Joe Sixpack for $5.50 The retailer gets $5 and Uncle Sam get 50 cents. Thus this $5 retail transaction has generated $1.50 in taxes or about 28%. And the consumer didn't get stiffed for the full amount. And guess who paid the balance? Corporations. The most evasive of them all. Who couldn't like a system like this? A pol could get elected on a platform like this. We could be a real functioning country again with real investment. Of course in the real world it won't be as simple because prices don't end in zeros but we have calculators to do that. But I bet a fair number of people can do 10% far easier in their heads than my current sales tax of 6-7/8%. We could disband the IRS, H&R Block and legions of tax attorneys (or feed them to the Mongols). The rich would pay more than the poor. All men are created equal. All that good stuff. Or we eat your kids. BTW- copyrighted, trademarked, patent-pending and I retained Ghengis Khan as an intellectual property attorney. Utilize this Uncle Sam and pay me my lug for solving big problems- on which I'll GLADLY pay 10%.3/15/2007 06:02:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why wouldn't our government want a flat tax? Politics? It would upset everyone with big deductions?

Maybe...

Actually, I think it's because our government in our glorious "land of the free" has discovered that subsidizing "desirable" behaviors through tax deductions and credits enables them greater influence over people without people screaming about civil rights violations or the burgeoning welfare state.

Imagine you have no mortage (I know, it's hard), but the government wants you to have one. People with mortgages are less likely to quit their jobs or in general be irresponible. So the government decides to fine you thousands of dollars a year for having a mortgage.

Perposterous? Well, who do you think is paying for all the mortgage deductions?


Or imagine if the government wrote a check for several thousand dollars every year to every person with a mortgage. What! This isn't a welfars state! Oh wait, all those people are getting "tax refunds." Same money, different label.

Now you can see why people like Steve Forbes, who believe in freedom, believe in a flat tax.3/15/2007 08:52:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I first would like to say that the Queens english is for Queens. Oh don't get all bent out of shape.

The Fair tax would really benefit the rich. Its a joke and it will never happen. A national sales tax is as mentioned a consumption tax which is obviously a regressive tax. I worked for many years in an international tax department and have worked with tax systems all over the world. A VAT tax is not the answer. The still have income taxes in most of the countries with VAT. Also if you had one tax rate it would be so easy to up the rate and thats exactly what would happen (as many of you mentioned). Our system is complex (being a CPA I love it). I graduated right before Ronald Reagans tax reform and got a job with a big Eight accounting firm. My grandfather, the kind man he was, told me that I won't have a job soon. I asked one of the tax partners what Reagans tax fairness and simplification act would have on our industry and he said any time they have simplified it, it got more complex. And he was right, becareful what you wish3/15/2007 10:08:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If america would get off of it's socialism and go back to republican democracy(translated, change from and entitlement system to an incentive system) the tax rate would be 15 percent without significant changes in any other spending(including military).
The liberal left still wants people they control because they say we are too dumb to handle it. And of course they are the ones smart enough to know best. But for the most part their entitlement mentality is responsible for our current situation. Not spending on the military. There will come a time around 2040 when entitlement spending which reach upwards of 70 percent of the gdp. The fair tax rate will work better than the IRS because it will cost less to operate as well as collect.3/15/2007 11:44:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|As Mark Twain wisely observered, there are statistics, damn statistics and lies. Anybody who does not support the abolition of the IRS and a national retail sales tax is a damn fool and should have his/her citizenship revoked.3/20/2007 12:28:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|What is it with the name 'Brandon?'

Brandon, Ann Arbor -
A. People will be more than happy to pay 23% (actually 30%) because it will be with money that has NOT had income tax deducted.
B. Your two-tier system is a terrible idea. The beauty of the Fair Tax is that it is simple to administer and enforce. What would happen in your idea if there were 4 or 5 layers of distribution as part of the production cycle. (Nice grad degree - DUH)
C. The comment about military spending was pretty clear to me, if the US didn't spend at the levels we do, our "allies" would have to pick up a much larger portion for their own good. (Although really, with France, would it matter?)

Brandy, Mass. -
Maybe the people who are about to retire, as you mentioned, who are going to get socked twice, are be treated completely fairly, as they are part of the generation that rang up this HUGE national debt. Just sayin...

The Fair Tax would be the greatest political move in this country in over a century. Anyone who doesn't like it, shut-up, find your receipts, and go play with your Turbotax.3/20/2007 10:43:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I agree with Brandon that a flat tax is better then than a national sales tax; however, I will take a national sales tax over the IRS. But this is not what we need to focus on.
What we need to do people is reduce government spending at all levels or the American way of life is doomed.3/09/2007 04:47:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|I dropped by the New School University this morning to see a panel discussion on the state of the U.S. economy. The line-up included Nobel Prize winning economist Robert Solow, CNBC's Larry Kudlow, economist and superblogger Brad DeLong, and Robert Hormats of Goldman Sachs. Former Nebraska Senator Bob Kerrey, the president of the New School, moderated. The general view from the panel was that the economy is in fairly decent shape, but that during the Bush administration we've squandered an opportunity to invest for the future and to improve our fiscal health. I'm guessing "Goldilocks" Kudlow doesn't sign on to the second half of that formulation, but I came in near the end of his opening remarks and he left before the discussion really opened up. That's a shame--it might have been a fun debate to watch. In any case, I picked up some interesting insights: Consumption taxes are coming. That's the forecast, at least, of panelist Robert Shapiro, a former undersecretary of Commerce during the Clinton administration. He thinks we're likely to see two additional federal taxes imposed in the next 20 years. First, a carbon tax to address global warming. Second, a "value added" tax just to pay for Medicare. "Under anything like the current political constraints, we will have to find enormous new resources to pay for Medicare," he said. "And that's how you get to a VAT." A VAT is similar to a sales tax, except that the money is collected from all the businesses involved in making and distributing a good. (To a consumer, it can still look exactly like sales tax, depending on the design.) According to Taxing Ourselves by Joel Slemrod and Jon Bakija, almost every other industrialized nation uses a VAT. Shapiro's prediction for a Medicare VAT sounds pretty plausible. Of maybe it will be a bigger, broader Health Care VAT. As another panelist, Julie Kosterlitz of the National Journal, observed, polls suggest that most Americans would be willing to pay higher taxes in exchange for universal health coverage. And Kerrey, the long-time politician, said that the public is usually more accepting of taxes that are earmarked for a specific purpose. As I pointed out in an earlier post, if future tax hikes come in the form of consumption taxes, you'll pay them even if you stashed your savings in a Roth account. Maybe that's another reason for lawmakers to like them. Yes, China could be a problem. China has been lending us lots and lots of money, which in turn has made it easier for us to buy all their t-shirts, blenders and televisions. They do this even though our dollar is clearly overvalued; as its value falls, so will China's return on its loans to us. Most observers think that won't be a problem--the imbalance will unwind slowly as China's economy matures. You'll also hear that a falling dollar really isn't so bad, since it would boost the overseas demand for goods manufactured here. (We do still do that.) But DeLong pointed out that what matters here is velocity. What if China really isn't okay with lousy returns on its dollar-denominated assets? And what if it realizes this, as DeLong vividly put it, "in the middle of the night," in a panic? A fast decline in the dollar would still boost foreign demand for the stuff we make, but to benefit we'd have to shift a whole lot of our workforce out of the service and construction sectors (which would be hurting) and back into manufacturing. Just how quickly can we retrain interior decorators and Home Depot managers and turn them into auto workers? DeLong said he isn't betting on such a catastrophe. He was suggesting that we need some "fire insurance," just in case. Since I don't think State Farm wants to write the entire U.S. economy a policy, the only "insurance" would be to get the budget in better shape. DeLong's analysis poses a bit of a problem for liberals. (DeLong worked in the Clinton administration.) People like Paul Krugman and James Galbraith are arguing that Democrats should lose their obsession with balanced budgets, so that they can get big things done if they win all the marbles in 2008. And it's true that deficits aren't always so terrible. But this would have been an easier case to make in 2000. As it stands today, deficit spending for health care, education or the rest of the Democrats' wish list will have be piled on top of the deficits generated by what DeLong calls Bush's "three big projects:" tax cuts, the war, and Medicare Part D. Why you can't afford New York real estate, part 2. Bob Kerrey said that on the island of Manhattan, 16% percent of the population works in finance or insurance, but that those people earn 65% of the borough's income. I'm not sure where he's getting those numbers, but they certainly sound about right. One common response to concerns about rising inequality is to say that it's just a side-effect of our incredible system of higher education. The economic return for going to college or graduate school is very high--and who would really want it to be otherwise? Well, New York has no shortage of educated people. You can't swing a cat on 14th Street without hitting five or six people with advanced degrees. But a Ph.D. and six bucks will just about buy you a Metrocard in this town. Teachers, nurses and scientists--productive people with lots of training--are barely hanging on here. It's important to reward people who invest in their brains, but is it just maybe possible we're rewarding the narrow slice of smart people who invest in MBAs a little too much?|W|P|117347734960819378|W|P|The two new taxes you'll be paying by 2027|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/09/2007 06:08:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Many college graduates toil for low wages; I have a degree and earn my state minimum wage. So who says college graduates deserve big bucks?3/09/2007 06:56:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|*Yawn*, Hey Pat, where's our red meat? You know, fire and brimstone right wing stuff like abolishing Social Security and Medicare? Your going soft... and its making for sleepy articles.3/10/2007 12:42:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The proposed military budget for the coming year is $625 billion. If we ran our military budget at the same level as most other industrialized nations - about 2% of GDP - we would eliminate the deficit altogether. Next, restore the "death tax" and increase it with the stated purpose of paying off the national debt; the baby-boomers borrowed against the future (our future), and it's time for them to pay up on their loans. Eliminate the AMT. Institute a 2% national sales tax to help pay down the national debt sooner (so there is less interest paid out) and create a single-payer health care system in the U.S. to ensure everyone can have reasonable health care and to take a huge burden off of corporations - especially small businesses which are the heart of America.3/10/2007 11:29:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Without the military there are no colleges. No all night raves. No bad reality TV shows. No real estate deeds. No foul rap music. No equal rights. No suing your neighbor because his dog watered your lawn. What anchors everything in the US is the Constitution and the ONLY thing that maintains it's ultimate survival and it's status quo is the military. That's it so get over how much it costs to maintain it, especially coming from people who will never serve in the first place because your too narcissistic. It's not maintained by sniveling college students or Professors whining about not being left wing enough in an article. You want to get financially stabilized? Exercise some self control and stop the ridiculous housing lending that has driven home prices way beyond anything close to what they are worth. 1.4 Trillion in loans using foreign money to finance millions of Americans so they can go out and by overpriced homes they can't afford. Way to go America! And when you default on those loans, the bankers will run to the Govt., and get mostly paid off and stick the rest of us (who were smart enough not to buy an over priced house) with the tax bill to pay for it. Thanks. The bankers and realtors who pulled this stuff will walk and if it doesn't destabilize the world economy in the process I'll be surprised. Fix that. Try and get 100's of millions of spoiled rotten Americans to show some self restraint in their deeds and actions and put society above themselves in their daily lives. Try and get them to turn the other cheek and realize life isn't perfect and that's just the way it is. Fix the frivolous lawsuits that lawyers and unscrupulous people bring that is crushing manufacturing and dozens of other industries. Implement a "loser pays" legal system in the US to eliminate frivolous lawsuits so the lawyers have to pay if they lose a case. Wow! What a concept! A lawyer that not only doesn't get paid if he loses a case, but is personally liable to the victors of the case for their losses! Check out the legal system in England. Freedom? Most young people don't know what the word means. It used to mean live and let live (but that only works if you actually turn the other cheek and respect other peoples opinions and privacy). Instead, we cram political correctness down everyones throat, which is not freedom, but a social engineering experiment gone wrong. Balance. Common Sense Self Control. Humility. Hard Work. Honesty. Sacrifice. Teach that to the next generation.3/10/2007 01:25:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|You pay more to those who bring in the bacon. As America currently does not do any productive manufacturing anymore and survives on the arbitrage of the dollar against the yuan the entire country is getting fed by the tricks Wall Street is playing on the Chinese. I think the financiers deserve all their salaries as their shell games are all that is keeping the American populace off the streets and well fed3/10/2007 09:09:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|rick, you don't need a large military to have a large well functioning economy, look at japan. look at the scandinavian states. You will see every period of history when a superpower rises, the next thing that occurs is imperialism. The us has stretched itself too far for imperialistic gains, while neglecting domestic issues. we don't need more military rick, i'm sorry, that will create the downfall of society and the downfall of liberty. But i do agree totally about your social agenda goals pertaining to the ridiculous american legal system and our social structure "american way of life" (which is an idea based on gluttony, greed and oppression). Unfortunately ppl only survive in this current economic system if they are pawns or workers of others who hold power. god forbid you have your own idea. America is not the land of mental freedom and the greatest ideas anymore, it is a nation whos collective conscious has been stolen and a nation that is struggling to maintain its feeble power grip on the world.3/10/2007 09:25:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Other countries spend @ 2% on defense BECAUSE the U.S. basically covers the entire western world's defense needs. Europe? Japan? South America? No worries, Uncle Sugar will jump in if there's a fight.3/11/2007 05:36:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I am concerned about the future relationship with China. If they hate us so much aren't they setting us up to take an Economic Fall after fueling their rise to power through buying our debt and selling us cheap stuff at Wallmart?

By 2020 won't there be hundreds of millions of men without the possiblity of marriage?

With all that testosterone.... WAR
In space, Online, and Economically by taking our dollar and ushering in the 2nd great depression.

who will care about Medicare and Consuption taxes then... when hyperinflation hits due to bad budgets and a Dollar that china sinks.

My predictions for our Future. Unfortunately....3/11/2007 02:45:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|A note to those folks that have a simple solution to government funding issues (courtesy of the GAO):

http://www.gao.gov/cghome/d061084cg.pdf
I would hope that the level of discourse on this board would reflect more knowledge of basic economics. Simple concepts like NPV, the cash equation (income = spending per per period), and 'debt is eventually repaid' go a long way towards understanding the futility of tweaking the current system.

TANSTAAFL (with apologies to R. Heinlein)3/12/2007 03:45:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If I'm not mistaken I read that 80% of our foreign held debt is in the hands of EU and japan, with china holding some 5%... thats not a large enough chunk to do much.3/12/2007 07:51:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|We have the best system in the world. Those of you who want more taxes to pay for everything should try living in Europe. No one gets ahead because the governments there take 50, 60 70 cents on every dollar they make to pay for Health Care etc. Look at France, everything is an entitlement and they can�t even get people to work a 30 hour week without riots. I enjoy having a choice in a competitive marketplace like ours. Government does not need to provide us with everything. That is called Socialism and it does not work and never will. To all of you who want a healthcare system like Canada or the UK ask someone who lives there what it is like . . . . If you like 6 month waits for anything you will be excited.

Also, the sky is not falling people! Just because there is a deficit does not mean the country is going to go bankrupt! Do you know how much money the federal government BORROWED to fight WWII? Over $4trillion! Did the US all of a sudden shrivel up and die? No we did not, we prospered and became the greatest nation on Earth because of the current system. We do not need to change what we do just because the rest of the world has a VAT or socialized medicine. My humble opinion is that we should do exactly the opposite because the rest of the world does not work. So what if China becomes what everything thinks they will? They have a couple of billion people, but communism will prevent them from overtaking the US because their system does not allow the free and open exchange of ideas and thought. We are the best in the World even with our flaws and there is no reason to change. Get a grip and quit listening to the �sky is falling� crowd. It is just not true! Work hard and you will be alright3/13/2007 05:45:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Jack, Amen! Please do go and live in the countries you praise for their health care systems (and get a disease or two) and their great economies and then preach. On the issue of people with MBA's gettin gover paid: it is simply a matter of supply and demand and we all have the same opportunity to do as well as those on wall street do given the appropriate qualifications and talent. Not everyone can slam dunk like Michael Jordan and not everyone can become the next Warren Buffet.

China is a growing economic power but they will never be a great society like ours where chinese citizens can get thrown in jail for decades for something as simple as "disturbing social order".

Goto France, try to get a job there and see how easy it is or how well you like it (btw in france you pick your profession at a ridiculously young age, goto school/technical college for it/learn that skill and stick with that profession for the rest of your life with no other opportunity or possibilities as far your career goes).

Let's take another country as an example: Health care in Mexico is cheap and free for its citizens but its also a place where most of its citizens make a couple of bucks a day and barely make enough to survive while something like this is possible: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/03/12/mexico.slim.ap/index.html

I am not saying everything is fine here at home -- we do have our share of problems -- but we also have some of the brightest in the world and every day there are many many brightest and best in the world who migrate to the U.S to call it their home. For example: there was an article on CNN about Germany and how many professionals from Germany are migrating to the U.S -- more Germans left Germany than returned last year -- read it).

So i think we are and will be vigilant and we'll be alright.3/13/2007 08:01:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Pat Regnier,

I agree that we should reward educated people for being well educated. And I think the system already does that. But it's no secret that nurses, teachers, and scientists are undervalued. Doctors are paid too much. We allow too many lawsuits to go to court. We don't support teachers enough and pay administrators too much. America is addicted to money. The sad lesson we are teaching our kids is that if you aren't rich, you are a nobody. The media is much to blame for that. Too many gold teethed rappers and American Idol wannabes.

I have my MBA by the way and I'm far from what I'd consider wealthy.3/13/2007 08:11:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Jasmine in San Diego,

I agree with you! We do live in the greatest country on earth. Our system isn't perfect, but it is the best on the planet.3/13/2007 11:48:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Several posters have correctly pointed out that Japan and the European companies spend less of their GDP on defense than we do because they're getting a free ride off of the USA.

I will go further and point out that they have been getting that free ride for over 60 years.

If it were not for the protection of the United States, western Europe would have been swallowed up by the Communist block states years ago.

And not a one of them would have been able to sustain their socialist welfare states that some people in this country seem so enamored of if that DID have to spend as much as we have been spending on their behalf.

Most of them are mighty ungratefull for our beneficience to boot.

As others have said here, those who think the socialist way of doing things is so great are free to move to one of those countries and live it for yourself.

I don't want that crap imported here.3/14/2007 01:23:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The military is responsible for defending the Constitution. However, they are not and should not be the World's Police. Cutting the military to 'bare bones' gives us the ability to reduce the debt (forget the deficit) and to restablize the US economy. Add to that we should have strict tariffs against Chinese goods (upwards of 45%) to insure that US manufacturing jobs do not leave the country and to enforce the end of slave labor (China has a plan to 'relocate' people and they need jobs...) This, along with the end of SS and Medicare (yes, the end of the only National system of Healthcare that will only drive everyone into the poor house with NO health care.) Social Security was and is supposed to be a 'safety net' not an additional source of income when you hit 65, 66, 67 or maybe 70. There are enough 'programs' out there that any savvy 25 year old will be able to build their own retirement plan. We need to end the debt, and now. Clinton actually had a plan and it was working. Look at the rate of growth in the late 90s and compare it to the last six years. Some difference...3/14/2007 10:56:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Hey Jack from phoenix , nice work . I didn't think there were any sensible folks west of the mississippi.. America rocks , why ? because We can!! ..
Why don't you run for President rather than Mccain .. have a good one !!! Mark in Virginia ( where America started the right way !!)3/15/2007 12:26:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Rick Venus, Detroit, MI. when are you running for president? You my friend hit the nail right on the head. Best comment I've read.3/15/2007 01:53:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|While all the comments blamed others for our problems with the ecomony no one addressed the issue that the ecomony is a earn and spend circle. I believe instead of the Chinese we are headed back to the days of Rockefeller and Vanderbilt. Why should any one person earn 26 million dollars and then cut workforces not one of these supposedly highly educated execs see the big picture that its great to pull home a giant salary but for how long afterall by eliminating workers there will be less people able to demand my products therefore hurting the ecomony I agree they should earn a good salary but how much can one person spend. If we spread the wealth we wouldn't have to cut the workers to increase the bottom line. Afterall it is cause and effect with the cause being execs pulling in giant salaries and effect the working class now not being able to afford the products. The more that work the more that spend and keep the system humming.

As for Social Security and Medicare we need to stop abusing it and use it what it was intended for. I realize we have all paid in to the system but if you are pulling down say 50,000 a year in retirement do you really need that $700/a month check lets remember if we don't work together and not be greedy we can continue to build the greatest system in the world.

Go USA.3/15/2007 05:13:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|You dont tax the next generation for the previous two generations underfunded liabilities. Im not sure what the answer is but since only 12% of the population is 65 or older I have a feeling they'll be the ones paying.3/15/2007 05:13:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Who wants to live in Hilary's village? I don't. I appreciate the thought of making my own decisions and paying my own way. I raised my children, sent them to school and see them working at their careers. America the beautiful!3/15/2007 06:10:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To James in Tuscon,
You really think "Clinton had a plan"? I think his main plan was to get in the pants of teenagers by using his slick personality. As far as the economy goes, you might note that the stock market began plummeting in January 2000, when the falsifications of the "Clinton Plan" were becoming obvious. You see, the Clinton plan was for companies to lie to everyone about how much the new technology was going to increase .com's productivity over the next 20 years. Businesses followed Clinton's leadership in lying about, well, just about everything - some to the extent that they went completely belly up despite having billions of $ worth of business (MCI, Enron). The stock markets rocketed up from 1995 to the end of 1999 with nothing but a bunch of non-profitable .coms supporting it. Tax revenue increased as people paid extra taxes on speculative profits on stocks. The military was cut, placing our entire nation and way of life at risk to even minor entities like rogue terrorists. When people relized that all the speculative tech companies were never going to make a profit, the stock market tumbled and tax revenue was punished for five years because people could deduct their losses instead of paying extra taxes. The fact that we survived and did not have the economy devastated when we had to pay the bill for "the Clinton Plan" says a lot about the resiliance of America. The Clinton plan says everything about the man - the plan can be summed up in three letters... LIE.

BTW, I concur completely with those who have pointed out that we have provided for the military protection of Europe and they are ungrateful. I think they are ungrateful because they realize how sad their socialist lives are and wish things were different. But rather than blaming themselves for their selfishness (selfishness drives people to want socialism) they pick out the US to blame. We are a big target and can absorb many body blows. Socialism is generated by people who want the government to provide for them the things they have not earned and for which they cannot pay. I wish the government would provide us all with a brand new sports car. But don't raise my taxes, just raise the taxes on the rich!3/15/2007 11:15:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Other countries spend @ 2% on defense BECAUSE the U.S. basically covers the entire western world's defense needs. Europe? Japan? South America? No worries, Uncle Sugar will jump in if there's a fight.
Posted By John C. Los Angeles, CA : 9:25 PM

and we're dumb enough to pay for it. maybe we should just protect ourselves and use the money for other priorities3/16/2007 03:04:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Yep,

All that money we are spending fighting everyone else's battles, we could be using those funds here.

For instance:

The United States has a terrible intra-structure. We have Big Rigs taking up the highways (which were never designed for this) to deliver goods when this material should be shipped via high speed train. The trucks should only be used to deliver from local hubs. Think about all the fuel that would save.

I am in full agreement with the comments above about the legal system. I think you will find few people who disagree. As a juror on a BS personal injury case, I can tell you I wish I could have awarded damages to the defendent. I would have. There should be a penalty applied to cases which are totally out there.3/16/2007 12:12:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The U.S. Constitution states clearly what the Federal Government can or can not do. Taking U.S. tax dollars and supporting foriegn countries is not a stated as a right the federal government may do. So as you work and get taxed at 50% (that is all taxes combined), only blame yourself because you vote Republican or Democrat. Go register as an Independent !!!!!!!!!!3/16/2007 01:20:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|HI NOT ALL MBA'S MAKE A FORTUNE, MBA'S ALSO WORK IN THE NON FOR PROFIT INDUSTRY WITH FEW IF ANY BENEFITS, AND LEND THEIR BRAINS AND ABILITIES TO THOSE IN NEED.............DIANA RIORDAN COMMACK, NY3/16/2007 02:33:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Dave in Denver, Sooo right.3/19/2007 03:55:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|There is no such thing as the "common good" or "decision that is best for society." Society and the common good are abstract terms that don't apply to anyone. Although most Americans would be willing to pay higher taxes for universal health care, it's not the government's job to raise taxes to provide it. The people who want it should fund it privately, not force the people who don't want it to pay for those who can't afford it and didn't pay for it.

If you feel like certain professions are overvalued and overpaid, then why don't you give your money to teachers, nurses, and other workers? The capitalist system works to place "value" on things, although the value is determined through demand and supply also. Each person has individual values for products and services and it's not the government's job to find a compromise. It is the government's job ONLY to protect people and help maintain a free marketplace so that opportunities to present theirselves. The government has no right to take money from people who rightfully earned it through their own innovation and investment and give it to people who are "unlucky." Each person knows, going to college, the risks associated with their fields and degrees. If you don't get a job, then work harder, find other experience, or train for something else. The market should not cater to you if there is no need for your skills. That would be taking resources away from skills and products that people actually want.

Maybe no one needs $26 million dollars, but it makes no difference if that money is held by one person or 26 million. The money will be spent and distributed rather swiftly. Most millionaires invest their money or save it. Companies spend the money to hire new workers, create new products, construct new buildings; and banks lend out money to people who don't have it but want to invest it in buying something or also building something. There is nothing wrong with the current distribution of money: rich people reinvest their money to provide jobs to people so that they can make money and support theirselves. People who don't earn the money but may receive it through government handouts also invest the money by buying a car or a shirt at a store. The money ends up in the same place, so long as people are spending. The only difference is that the distribution currently allows people to keep what they earn, and socialist programs promotes an equality that doesn't even exist.3/20/2007 01:58:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Many of the world's problems can be attributed to the fact that incompetent people continue to have kids. In fact, the incompetent have a far greater birth rate. What defines incompetence? It's not limited to race, religion or geography. There are lousy parents from all races and religions. It's not money dependent, unless of course, there isn't enough for food, shelter and education (which is the problem for about 1/3rd of the world's population). In fact the super rich are often incompetent parents. If a person hasn't learned anough about the world to pass on to their kids, or doesn't have the time and patients to do it, the person is incompetent.

Crime, poverty, starvation, disease, war, etc. are all related to this phenomenon3/22/2007 11:32:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I am a boomer so it is too late for me, and it is too late for my (the excess)generation.
You younger people better wake up soon and stop the growth of government. We are well on the road to total socialism.
Start the change to:
1. More individual freedom and less government.
2. More quality and less quantity.
3. More saving and less consumption.
4. More working and less complaining.
Do your yourselves a big favor and don't vote for another baby boomer for President. Also, start thinking about a third party that wants to tell the masses the truth and start redcing the size of government everywhere. You are probably our last chance.3/08/2007 04:04:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|Hey, Patriot-News of Harrisburg, PA, it's supposed to be blogs that raid newspapers for material! (See last post.) Not that I'm complaining.
EDITORIALS ANGRY FOLKS: Day of reckoning on its way with stratospheric tax hikes There are some truly mean-spirited people on the Internet. Take this from James in Monument, Colo.:

"Let me offer my personal thanks to the worst generation (the baby boomers). You have [mismanaged] this country royally and we, your children, would like to tell you what to do with yourselves. Thanks for all the debt and irresponsibility. I hope your nursing homes treat you like crap."

What did Mom and Dad do to this guy? Spend his inheritance?

Well, yes, in a manner of speaking.

James in Monument was responding to Money senior editor Pat Regnier, writing on the "Generation Risk" blog (which can be found at www.cnnmoney.com). Regnier was offered this interesting bit of advice by Robert Gordon of Twenty-First Securities in New York City: "Draw a chart of tax rates -- if that was a stock, you'd buy it now."

In other words, taxes are headed for the stratosphere.

Click here for the rest of the editorial. You might even be quoted in it.
|W|P|117338938086323335|W|P|Reversing the First Law of Blogodynamics|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/08/2007 12:39:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|At yesterday's House hearing on the alternative minimum tax, Republicans blamed Bill Clinton for the ever-expanding reach of the AMT. (More on that here.) I suspect they were channeling this Wall Street Journal editorial:

Remember the 1993 tax hike that was supposed to fall only on the rich? In addition to raising gas taxes and Medicare payroll taxes and income tax rates, the Democratic Congress that year also raised the AMT: from a 24% flat rate to a dual tax rate of 26% on AMT income up to $175,000 and 28% on AMT income above that amount.

It's true that the 1993 bill slightly increased the AMT's family income exemption, but Democrats refused to index those exemptions for inflation. So the combination of the higher rates and the failure to index for inflation has caught more and more middle-class taxpayers in the AMT's maw. From 1992 to 2002, this Clinton stealth tax hike increased sixfold the number of filers paying the AMT, to nearly two million from 300,000.

A Joint Tax Committee (JTC) analysis requested last year by Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa shows that about 11 million more Americans will have to pay the AMT next year thanks to the higher post-1993 AMT rates.
Here's a response to that argument from Wayne State University tax law prof Linda Beale, who blogs at ataxingmatter.blogs.com. (The emphasis is hers.)
The Journal blames Clinton for the AMT because the Clinton administration did the sensible thing--when top rates were raised, the AMT rates were raised as well so that the AMT could continue to function parallel to the regular system the way it was intended to. (Clinton also increased the AMT exemption--permanently, unlike the Bush Congress.) If the Bush administration had applied the same logic that the Clinton administration applied, it would have lowered the AMT rates (and again increased the exemption permanently, because of inflation) when it lowered the regular tax rates, so that the AMT would have continued to function parallel to the regular system in the way it was intended to.
Discuss...|W|P|117337642770370090|W|P|Alternative minimum blame|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/08/2007 06:06:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Were the orginal designers of the ATM completely incompetent/ignorant or is there something more insidious going on by not indexing the tax to inflation? Is capturing more and more of the middle-class income really the goal?3/08/2007 06:22:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Don, your point is well-taken. I think the real problem is that noone in power has yet been willing to accept the huge downward revision in projected Federal Revenue that would result from AMT reform. Even just indexing to inflation would greatly affect that number, which would turn us as a nation from a Social Security crisis into a full-blown meltdown. AMT will have to be reformed as part of a comprehensive plan that addresses SS and Medicare, or no one in Congress will have the guts to endorse a bill that touches it.

Of course that would require Congress to finally confront the single largest problem with our nation's long-term fiscal health. That's like asking a long-term addict to stop smoking...3/08/2007 08:06:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|the fact that no inflation indexer was included in the original legislation and has never been included since is an indication of the prevailing level of economic understanding in both the government and the voting public. this is the same faith in the magic touch of government that has led to the social security and medicare/medicaid disasters. if we must have such coerced benefits, design them to be as slim and efficient as possible.3/08/2007 09:39:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|'Clinton also increased the AMT exemption--permanently, unlike the Bush Congress?'

HUH?

And this guy is a professor? Man I knew the education system was in trouble, but yikes a professor who can't distinguish between the executive and legislative bodies, that's a new low.3/08/2007 11:02:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If anyone with income of over $175,000 is so irresponsible that they resent giving back a mere 28% of their income to enable the country that made them so well off stay strong, they should revoke their citizenship and move someplace else. It takes more than brains and luck to make $175,000. A great justice system; a great educational system; a healthy, well-educated work force; a safe environment; and a strong military are all important foundational elements of every successful person's prosperity. It costs tax dollars to pay for the kind of environment that fosters economic success, and the properous should certainly be required to chip in at least a minimalist 28% of their more than adequate income to ensure that they contribute their fair share of the cost of running this great country.3/09/2007 12:06:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|It is obvious that John whose last comment is that the "prosperous should certainly be required to chip in at least a minimalist 28% of their more than adequate income" to taxes is ridiculous. This shows someone's true socialist colors. 1)**The AMT does not just apply to people who make $175,000.
The system is not indexed to inflation and that means a working family with income of even $100,000 could become susceptible to this tax. In some areas $100,000 may seem like a lot but if you have 2 kids, a mortgage payment, health care costs and live in an urban area where even a 2 bedroom condo costs in excess of $500,000,-the $100,000 is certainly middle class and not wealthy by any means.
2) Earning a sizeable income does not indicate that you should be obligated to pay the government any more in taxes. If you make that much it is because you are financially savvy and blessed with the skills to command that income. It does not give the U.S. government the right to take more of their money simply because they are wealthy. The problem is not that the rich need to be taxed more than everyone else and forced to pay what John's "guilt tax" for being so lucky, the problem is the government needs to stop wasting so much of our money on socialist programs and pork packed bills calling for bridges to no where. The government gets to do the one thing that I wish I could do. When they spend all of their paycheck (taxes), they just go to their bosses (the American public) and ask for more and they don't even have to ask for it because the can just take it if it isn't given to them by raising taxes. So John the problem isn't that the wealthy should feel guilty for making so much and should humbly hand over the hard earned dollars to the spoiled child that spent all his ice cream money and now wants more. The problem is the government needs to be held accountable for their outrageous spending because based on your logic there is no reason for anyone to strive to be successful or wealthy if they are expected to pay a guilt tax for it. However, the AMT is not a guilt tax for the wealthy but an ill advised short term tax fix passed by ignorant politicians, that much like our politicians today, were too concerned with their present condition to worry about how those in the future would suffer for their nearsightedness.3/09/2007 12:14:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|175,000 in san francisco ain't the same as 175,000 in kent ohio. Which is another problem with the tax system...3/09/2007 01:19:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|John...you don't get it. Your comment is even more irresponsible. That's like saying that everyone should pay the same tax rate regardless of income. Why should the people who work their tails off have to pay a higher rate while the people who don't work as hard and earns a lot less pay a lower rate? The AMT is penalizing the middle class. And it's actually hurting people who are getting married with dual earners and kids. This needs to be addressed pronto.3/09/2007 01:37:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I don't think you understand AMT and the income or actual income a person receives. If your income is over $175,000 and let's say your a sole proprietor who has expenses, your in a bad spot.
Your gross income may place you in the AMT tax rate, but your real income after all expenses may be $30,000 and that's what left to pay your taxes, living expenses, etc. The net result is far different than just assuming someone earned $175,000 and that all went into their bank account. The middle class is getting squeezed into the AMT tax rate. The tax should be indexed for inflation. This is simply logical. Social Security and Medicare should be handled on their own without regard to AMT tax.3/09/2007 01:47:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|"If anyone with income of over $175,000 is so irresponsible that they resent giving back a mere 28% of their income to enable the country that made them so well off stay strong, they should revoke their citizenship and move someplace else."

If you live in California $175k gross income hardly pays the bills when the average mortage+property tax is around $4000/month. what AMT does is to prohibit people from even deducting the property tax and state income tax thus double taxing.3/09/2007 01:48:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|What do you suppose is so insidious about a flat tax rate of 10%? Surely it is as easy for the poor to pay 10% of little as it is for the rich to pay 10% of a lot. Should you get a tax break because you are blind in one eye? In two? Because you are a widower? Again, 10% of what you earned seems like fair treatment to everyone involved.3/09/2007 01:52:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|What kind of review process do you have that let's someone comment with complete ignorance? The article clearly stated the professor was a woman, and the commentator calls her a man and suggests he is an idiot for not knowing the difference between the legislative and executive bodies. Clearly this post has no intelligence whatsoever (since the poster forgot that bills are signed into law and thus all parties must share the blame). I think I shall not return to your blog.3/09/2007 01:59:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To the person that believes that someone making over $175k should be taxed more to benefit everyone else is... We are talking about the AMT group, not the rich. Whether they are irresponsible is irrelevant. And fair share, boy, you should really look at all the loop holes in the tax codes for the rich in this country before you make that statement.

Now, consider this, majority of the people who are affected by the AMT are more likely to be the ones who continues to keep themselves updated in the market place and striving for new skills that will give them an edge. And less likely to become couch potatos! It's a shame that all the investments (opportunity cost) that they have made is to take on a bigger burden of taxes so that the less willing can enjoy their TV time or say to themselves that the government will somehow create more programs or tax codes to take care of the ones who lack desire to strive for the American dream.

Well, let's not tax the ones who are considered rich so they can continue to see their fortunes' multiplies. And let's not tax the poor, because their taxes won't make a dent in our federal budget. Let's tax the AMT group, because they are too busy to do anything else other than finding that edge.

I am one of those affected by AMT. And I strive for the American dream. Now, you tell me what is a fair share for my opportunity cost?3/09/2007 07:30:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The AMT goes back to Tip O'Neal as his way of offsetting the Reagan tax cuts. Subsequent complaints do not take the issue back to its route cause.3/09/2007 09:29:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I don't agree with every point of John's post, but he does make a very valid point about the infrastructure that gave the wealthy the opportunity to become wealthy. If the wealthy got that way just by "working harder" or being "financially savvy" then let's strip them of their money and send them to Iraq and see how wealthy they can become. The answer is: not at all. We all enjoy the infrastructure that allows people to become wealthy, and when you are truly successful at leveraging that infrastructure it is fair that you should do more to support it. Warren Buffett himself has made comments to this effect; this isn't coming from socialists.

I'd also like to address the idea that the wealthy "work harder". Most of the poor and middle class work harder than any of the wealthy. The difference? The wealthy have realized how to be capitalists in a Free-Market(tm) Capitalist economy. The poor and middle-class have not; they are merely the capitalists laborers. It helps a lot to know the real rules and how the game is really played.3/09/2007 09:39:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I'm shocked that no one has mentioned this: the 106th Congress passed a bill that would repeal the AMT, and Clinton vetoed it. See: http://www.house.gov/jec/tax/amt.htm

Given that, it's tough to argue that Clinton doesn't deserve blame. Of course, others do too.3/09/2007 10:28:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If politicians and economists would stop playing the blame game and work on the problem, we'd all be better off.

The bottom line is that we are where we are. Any relief in the AMT through higher deductions, more deductions or lower tax rates is tax relief. I'm not saying that it's not needed, but call it what it is.

I've heard so much more talking about who's affected and the history of the AMT than what can be done about it. It's very tiring. Same thing with the estate/death tax. So for all those people who have posted, let's hear what you have to say.

I'd say let's adjust the execmption up one time and index it to inflation from this point on. Call it tax relief, so with paygo (not that I believe Congress will adhere to it, but it's a nice theory), you have to cut spending somewhere to match it.3/09/2007 10:57:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|How much is enough? Here is how it goes:

Earn $175K and get taxed at 28% and 8% for state & Local (toal %36%)

Buy a house and get stuck w/ property tax.

Hold on to the house for enough time and eventually retire and sell the house. pay tax on the gain (unless i roll it into another house or take the 1 time exemption of %250K)

The govt is too big, and spending too much $$ on things the founders never intened govt to do.

Just my opinion.3/09/2007 11:24:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|What I do know is that under the tax rules that Bill Clinton and the Democratic Congress put into place, I NEVER had to pay AMT. The amount that was withheld from my paycheck plus some extra for the marriage penalty, was sufficient for my federal tax bill. I retained by deduction for state taxes and the personal decutions for my children.
The first year of the Bush "tax Cuts" all of a sudden, I lose both of my personal deductions for my children and my deductions for my state taxes, and I owe thousands of dollars in federal taxes. The estimated taxes that I sent in for my capital gains (figured at 15%) were not sufficient anymore because of the further loss in AMT exemption.
I'm sorry if the Republicans want to blame the AMT problem on the last Democratic admistration, but myself and other professional couples that I know did not have to pay any AMT until the Bush tax cuts. It was the differential that the "tax Cuts" created that threw people into the AMT. By structuring the tax cuts the way that they did, the Republicans backfilled the loss in revenue from the "tax cuts" with AMT revenue. AMT became a stealth tax, propping up the appearance of the "tax cuts" not contributing to the deficit as much as they would if the AMT werern't serving the backfill.
Bush just wants to preserve his outrward "legacy" of his "tax cuts" for the history books and blame the AMT "problem" that he himself created on someone else.3/09/2007 12:04:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Fair? We will only see a fair tax system when Congress implement flat tax across the board. You make so much, your taxed so much. Take out all the loop holes available to certain groups of people. I just did my taxes and the amount of work I had to do to figure out AMT is ridiculous (and I've been an AMT victim for years now). I would like to see 1 senator or congressman figure his/her own taxes under AMT. Or maybe they have a loop hole on that...3/09/2007 12:06:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If 10% is good enough for Jesus, then it ought to be good enough for Uncle Sam !3/09/2007 12:09:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Btw, what did our government fixed lately? social security? medicare/medicaid? fair tax? dependence on fossil fuel? Oh right, none of the above.3/09/2007 01:01:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Everyone should make the same amount of money (and pay the same amount of taxes) no matter what they do. If we all live identical lives, there would be less violence and theft.3/09/2007 01:04:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|It's time for people to get real. The AMT was established because there were people earning a lot of money and paying no taxes. Without the AMT, the same situation would exist.

The rich get every bit as much return for their taxes as the poor.

Every year congress takes up the AMT and adjusts it for that year. The exempt amount is substantially greater than the mean income.

I'm amazed by all of the people who believe the rich earn a lot because of their hard work and the poor are all lazy.

These are the same people who get all bent out of shape whenever a minimum wage increase is mentioned.

As the rich continue to get richer and the difference between the haves and have-nots increases, I'm still waiting for Reagan's trickle-down economics to actually reach the poor. It's been more than 25 years and still the rich complain about the small amount they have to pay when compared to the large amount they get to keep.

Forget the percentages. Take a look and what you have, give thanks, and quit complaining.3/09/2007 01:13:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I 've paid the AMT for the last 3 years and honestly it is not that big of an imposition and I am not rich. The crux of the matter is that government needs to raise a certain amount of revenue to pay for its spending needs (defense, police, roads, social security etc.) Despite our gripes about government inefficiency we have not managed in our long history to vote in a more efficient government (don't blame the politicians, it's us the voters who choose them) so it's fair to say that somehow the revenue needs to be raised. Most Americans also tend to believe that since we all need to eat and stay somewhere poor Americans spend more of their income on those basic necessities and therefore that leaves them with little leftover money to pay for taxes. Therefore the richer with more leftover money have to pay more to cover the government expenses. Given these assumption the AMT looks like a decent approach to ensure that the rich do their duty towards the country. You might want to tinker with the details so it does not catch as many middle class people but in the end the money has to be raised. An easy way would be to realize that Bush's taxcuts were unaffordable for the country and roll them back. If a Republican president and Republican congress failed to cut the budget to compensate for the lower revenue it probably means it's very hard to do and unlikely to get done. So stop complaining and pay up like I do.3/09/2007 01:34:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|John in Kent is closer to being right than most of you objecting to him. This crying about gov't waste is really a red herring. The truth is that most of our taxes are used with reasonable effectiveness. Waste is a human failing. Fortune 500 companies, Gov't, small businesses, you and I all waste a reasonable percentage of our resources, and the difference is smaller than most folks would care to acknowledge. Cappucino anyone? Or maybe it's that Harley in your driveway. In any case, I hate the bridge to no-where Alaska as much as Derek, and I don't always like the way my tax dollars are spent, but the rhetoric about all gov't spending = waste is not very accurate. Also, poor people are not all lazy, and rich people are not all virtuous go-getters. A lot of hardworking people are poor, a lot of rich people just got lucky. There's a kind of holier than thou thing common to the middle class that we got where we are because we worked hard, implying all the poor people were lazy. In some cases they are, but in some cases they aren't, I don't think it's fair to imply that they all are. I've worked hard (I think 100+ hour weeks qualify)and gotten a little lucky, and I think I should pay more than someone who has fewer advantages, and benefitted less from our system of economics and gov't. At the very least, I should pay at the same RATE or slightly more per dollar. Where I disagree with John, and the only place I agree with Derek, is that the AMT is biting the wrong people... it's starting to hit the middle class, and damaging the incentives built into our tax system to build and support the middle class, such as the mortgage deduction, by dis-allowing them. The AMT needs to be structured to hit the folks making $200K to roughly $600K, to correct the fact that they pay a lower rate of taxes per dollar earned than anybody except the under $25K crowd (see David Cay Johnston, you can look it up), and the $600K and up crowd who often find tax advantages you and I can't get to take their taxes to ridiculously low rates.3/09/2007 02:01:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why not repeal the AMT and backfill the lost revenue with a tax on the biggest corperation/Political Action Commitee of them all?

Namely, organized religion.3/09/2007 02:27:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|It's time for people to get real. The AMT was established because there were people earning a lot of money and paying no taxes. Without the AMT, the same situation would exist.

The really rich people (ie the top 1-2% of earners) are not impacted by the AMT. Once your family makes about $500,000 per year, your regular tax liability is great enough so that the AMT does not apply. There was an article in Fortune I think in the last 6 months that detailed this, and that article suggested the best thing to do to avoid AMT was to make more that $500,000 (not a possiblity in my case). So if the people who don't have to work for a living are not currently impacted by the AMT, why should people making less have to pay it? Why should you lose your deduction for your children, but keep the deduction for the interest on whatever Mansion you might live in? Why should you be penalized for marrying a person with a real job who might be able to support your children if something happened to yourself?
Most of the loopholes that people were using in 1969 to avoid paying ttaxes don't exist anymore. Why should the AMT still exist to tax people who still have to work to maintain themselves instead of idle billionaires? if you can explain to me how as a working professional I can hide my income legally and pay no taxes nowadays, I would be willing to listen.3/09/2007 02:44:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|John, you definitely don't get it. $175,000 may seem like a lot to a person in Kent, Ohio, but in New York and California it does not go too far. I understand this is very difficult for people from other parts of the country to grasp, but it's a reality and it's precisely what's is wrong with the AMT. The AMT makes sense in places like Kent, Ohio -- just not in places where the cost of living is eminently higher.3/09/2007 02:47:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why should there be an ATM? Since when does it say that the successful should be willing to give more to the tax man? The only people that benefit from this hidden tax are the money grubbers that sit on capitol hill and think they know better about spending the hard earned money of others. (This is the start of Socialism) All they do is waste the funds they do receive by funding useless projects like long term unemployment, welfare payments and the like! Whatever happened to the American ethic of work hard, save money, don't live outside your means and not be a drain on society? Too many have their hand out and Washington is more that willing to be "Robin Hood"! I say do away with this stupid tax and lets get to a "Real" Tax simplification that fits the bill and doesn't strain the regular families that are not blessed with outrageous incomes. Everybody wants to pile on whats left of the "Middle Class". If you don't think this nation is in trouble, there is a big surprise coming for you!3/09/2007 02:58:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Eliminate ALL income taxes and go to a national sales tax and a consumption tax. - The more you make, the more you spend, hence the more taxes you pay, then everyone pays the same percentage of tax no matter how much they make.3/09/2007 03:03:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Bob, you're also missing the point. The AMT doesn't affect only "the rich," but the hard-working middle class as well. If you had done some background reading on the subject, you would know that every year the AMT hits more and more middle class Americans. The annual adjustments you refer to have been ineffective.3/09/2007 03:41:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Easy solution to it all: implement the Fair Tax (www.fairtax.org). This incredibly well-studied system of taxation would eliminate the AMT, eliminate the IRS and all the costs associated with tax collection, and implement a consumption tax instead of an income tax, so each individual can control his taxation amount by controlling how much he spends. This way people would no longer get punished by excessive taxation for providing value to society.3/09/2007 07:47:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I said the AMT came into being because there were "people earning a lot of money and paying no taxes." By the way, the wealthy who pay more via the regular tax system are already paying more, which means that those who have to use the AMT are paying a lower percentage than the very rich.

My wife and I earn about $45,000 (gross) a year, own our home free and clear, have no debt, save more than $1,000 per month, fund our IRAs, and contribute nearly $400 a month to my mother-in-law's upkeep. We live in a community where the median home price is nearly $400,000 and regular gasoline goes for more than $2.65 a gallon. It never got lower than $2.41 in recent months.

It isn't as expensive as some place, more expensive than others. More important is that it's possible to make it.

First, you don't have to have the most expensive home. Our free and clear home is 1,008 square feet. We're both in our early 50s and we've owned a total of six cars in our life (we still have three of them). We've never owned a new car, and in fact the newest was seven years old when we purchased it.

We've never inherited money, never earned more than $65,000 (combined),and our net worth is more than $750,000.3/10/2007 08:25:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|my husband and i built and renovated our home and turned it into a business to secure our future. we also supported my destitute mother. 8 years later my husband had a series of 3 heart attacks and needed to quit his business. after 17 years we sold to get out from under mounting fixed expenses.
we paid off our mortgage and bills, moved, and then the AMT took everything we had worked for for 20 years. the AMT took what we had worked for for 20 years. what do we do now? My husband is sick and we have a 13 year old, and a mother that depend on us. we are our of our rental end of july with no place to go
anne marie3/10/2007 09:23:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To the people who are complaining that $175k doesn't go as far in NY or CA as in OH:

Why do you think the people in OH should subsidize your federal tax obligations so that you can live in a place with high taxes and an expensive cost of living?

It is YOUR choice to live there, after all. $175k is $175k, it's up to you where you live and how you spend it.3/10/2007 10:56:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|AMT, Soc. Sec., Iraq, etc., etc. The American people only have themselves to blame. We keep electing the same crooks and liers to represent us in our local, state, and national elections. When we wake up and elect someone who realizes its a priveledge and honor to serve and not a way to get rich and screw the electorates, only then will we begin to turn this country around. The American people, Republican & Democrat do not know half of what goes on in Washington and no one could ever hope to get a clear picture from the media. Cut their salaries, take away their their entitlements, limit their terms, and hold them accountable only then can we hope for some sense from what we wee today.3/10/2007 02:09:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Everyone pays the AMT and everyone pays the regular tax. If your regular tax is $18,000 and your AMT is $20,000, you pay $20,000. If the two taxes are reversed, you still pay $20,000. One reason more people are paying the AMT is because tax cuts lowered their regular tax. This could be fixed by raising the regular tax. Is that really what you want?

I would rather see the regular tax eliminated and stick with the AMT than the other way around.3/10/2007 03:20:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Me on the Fairtax:
http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/06/pf/taxes/consumptiontax_0510/

flame on...3/10/2007 03:26:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Mike in Irvine writes:

"What kind of review process do you have that let's someone comment with complete ignorance? The article clearly stated the professor was a woman, and the commentator calls her a man and suggests he is an idiot for not knowing the difference between the legislative and executive bodies..."

The answer is that I'm pretty permissive. Misreading and misspelling is forgiven. Spam messages, wildly off-topic messages, and truly abusive posts are not.3/10/2007 03:59:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Re: Wealthy getting wealthy because of the infrastructure in place..

What about the people who get wealthy who come from areas without a formidable infrastructure in place, e.g. failing schools, limited access, horrible teachers, etc.? Should they pay for an infrastructure that they succeeded in spite of, as opposed to as a result of?3/10/2007 09:23:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Pete from Detroit,
No one is advocating that those who live in places where the cost of living is higher subsidize those who live in areas that are less expensive. The point is that someone making $175,000 in the more expensive areas, like NY, aren�t �rich� like they would be in Ohio. And, sorry, your view that �$175k is $175k� is flat out wrong. If you disagree with me, come to Manhattan and how far your Detroit salary gets you. Seriously. You have to realize that a $175,000 salary in NY probably equals about half that in places like Ohio -- but the person in Ohio who makes that that salary gets taxed at a much lower tax rate. That�s what�s unfair about our tax code and, in particular, the AMT. And there isn�t always a �choice� for professionals to make about where they live and work. I work in finance and my job only exists in New York, so moving to Ohio isn�t an option -- unfortunately. Believe me, if New Yorkers could take their salaries and move to some rural community where they could afford to buy a simple house and make the same salary, they would do it in a heartbeat.3/11/2007 12:25:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To correct a point made by John in Denver...

Mortgage Interest is still deductible for AMT purposes. As are 2nd mortgages and HELOC provided they were used for home improvement or purchase.3/11/2007 03:42:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Sean,
If they succeeded, they succeeded because of political stability, highway systems that transport goods, an Internet (communications infrastructure) that was developed by the U.S. government, a stable economy that is found no where else on the planet, etc. Even if they had lousy schools they had streets, public sewers and water systems, electricity, and other infrastructure unavailable in much of the world. If they succeeded despite some educational (or other) difficulties, that's fantastic. But they also succeeded because of an infrastructure unavailable in most of the world. They may be a "disadvantaged American", but that's still a very privileged person by world standards.3/11/2007 09:36:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Billy in NYC:

Half of $175,000 is still nearly $90,000 and $45,000 is half of that. People who can't make it work with $175,000 anywhere in America need to learn that it isn't how much you earn, but how much you spend.

Simple principal: Spend a little less than your earn, save and invest the difference, and in the long run you'll be well of.

By the way: If you're earning $175,000 a year, how much money are you saving by not having to pay Social Security taxes on the extra you earn?3/12/2007 01:34:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Oh, the plight of the middle class... If it wasn't for our SUV's and plasma tv's, I don't think we would make it!3/12/2007 12:47:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Do any of you actually pay the AMT?3/12/2007 12:56:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The problem lies with Congress, either Republican or Democratic controlled. They constantly refuse to address any major issue (Health care, SS, tax reform, etc.).
EGTRRA and the 2003 act significantly nominally lowered the marginal tax rates for nearly all US taxpayers. However by doing this it brought to prominence a previously lesser known provision of the US Internal Revenue Code, the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT). The AMT was originally designed as a way of making sure that wealthy taxpayers could not take advantage of "too many" tax incentives and reduce their tax obligation by too much. It is an alternate system of calculating a taxpayer's tax liability that removes many so called "tax preference items". However the applicable AMT rates were not adjusted in step with the lowered rates of EGTRRA and the 2003 act, causing many more people to face higher taxes because of the AMT than had originally been planned. This reduced some of the benefit of EGTRRA and the 2003 act for many middle income earners, particularly those with large deductions for state and local income taxes, dependents, and property taxes. Yes, he cut the taxes on dividends and capital gains to 15%, but failed to talk about the fact that if you are caught in the AMT, the tax is now calculated at 28%.
Since congress is so busy, why do they pass laws that will expire! One of the most notable characteristics of EGTRRA is that its provisions are designed to sunset or revert to the provisions that were in effect before it was passed. EGTRRA will sunset on January 1, 2011 unless further legislation is enacted to make its changes permanent. Why don�t they do their job! Pass a law, if it doesn�t work repeal it! But do not pass a law so that it expires within a decade so they can re-address the issue again. I pay way too much in taxes to a legislative body that is afraid to make a decision!3/12/2007 01:48:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|John, try to moving to the Northern VA suburbs of DC, where your mortgage/principle and taxes can run over $4k a month! Then tell me that $175k a year is SOOO much money! And by the way, we don't pay JUST federal taxes - we pay, state, maybe local, sales, personal property, real estate, and whole host of other taxes...wisen up, buddy! My husband and I made about $190k last year, and after paying our mortgage and other living costs, and then taxes, ended up with very little to show for it!

What the AMT does, in my opinion, is erodes the "equality" of common folks in this country. You can have a DINK (dual-income, no kids) couple that made $190k and have them not qualify for the AMT, but throw a couple kids into the mix, and they're screwed! BAM! They have to pay the AMT! Why should they have to pay higher taxes? because they make more? Because they have kids and a mortgage? What kind of equality is that??3/12/2007 01:48:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The government needs money to run, whether it comes via regular income tax or the AMT. But why does it need to be so darn complicated? My complaint is that taxes are so darn complicated that I can no longer do it myself and have to pay hundreds of dollars for a tax man.

Every time our government make things more complicated, it is another anchor dragging on our economy.3/12/2007 01:49:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|My husband and I are in our mid/late 40s and ive in New Jersey. Combined, we make right around $200,000 per year, and pay the highest property tax rate in the nation -- we pay almost $18,000 annually, whereas for a comparably sized home with more land in our previous, much less expensive state, we paid $2,600. We've been hit with the AMT each year that we've lived in New Jersey, and never paid it in our previous state. Though we have diligently tried to adjust our withholding accordingly, we pay penalties each year in addition to the AMT. We have no debt other than our mortgage and our net worth excluding home equity is about $1.7 million. It seems as though the AMT targets people who live in high property tax states and earn in the low-ish six figures. Though we have a high net worth, I can tell you that living in the metro NYC area, we certainly don't feel at all "rich." More often than not, when tax time rolls around, we find ourselves feeling punished for being successful.3/12/2007 03:52:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|"Do any of you actually pay the AMT?"
if you had read the previous posts, you would know that many of us posting DO pay AMT. I have been paying AMT every year since the buch "tax cuts" became effective.3/12/2007 04:41:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|What this whole discussion confirms is America is a nation of whiners!3/12/2007 06:43:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Lisa,
You don't feel rich! With your $1.7M in net worth, you both could quit your jobs and live off interest income for the rest of your life in most areas of the country. I think most people call that rich.3/12/2007 08:45:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Bob from Bend, Oregon,

Even the most frugile person making $175,000 in New York City would find it difficult to get ahead. Keep in mind that, in addition to having to pay $3,000 in montly rent for your average one bedroom apartment, most of the professionals in New York have student loans that dwarf the size of the average American's Mortgage. So simply "spending a little less" of your salary isn't gettig you a modest piece of real estate over here. You cannot have any appreciation for how expensive it is to live here unless you live here. $175,000 will always seems like a lot more money to those who don't make it and don't live in NYC. It's a nice salary and I'm grateful, but having to pay back 40% of it to the government is ridiculous for someone who has zero networth, $100,000 + in student loans, and can only afford to rent a one bedroom apartment.

As for the money we're apparently saving by not paying a social security tax, you fail to consider that we won't be getting any greater retirement benefits than those who make $90,000 a year.3/13/2007 09:13:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I live in NYC. Two teachers married to one another earn more than $175,000 per year. Homes cost more than $500,000 -- and that's a cheap home. We pay federal, state and local taxes. We pay higher insurance premiums -- health, liability, car, etc. We pay upwards of $200 per month -- each-- to commute. $175,000 per year may be alot of money if you live in Podunk, but it's a middle-class income here.

The AMT affects people earning between $100,000 and $500,000 per year -- that's total family income, not individual income. As such, it affects the professional middle-class (teachers, accountants, lawyers, doctors, I.T. people, skilled construction workers such as electricians & plumbers) in LA, NYC, D.C. and other high-tax, high inflation areas. It phases out at very high incomes, meaning that it does exactly the opposite of what it was intended to do, which was to tax the rich who were not paying their fair share of income taxes. Not surprisingly, high tax, high inflation cities are -- Democratic. Not for nothing will Bush and his Republican buddies take my family's income while letting their corporate stock option buddies off the hook.

I want also to tell the person who claimed that earning $175,000 a year meant that you were "rich" that, between federal, state and local taxes, plus the property taxes that we can't deduct because we are in the AMT, my family pays FIFTY PERCENT of our income in taxes. That's before utilities ($700 per month to heat a 2,750 sq. ft. house), health insurance ($11,000 per year), college tuition (don't ask), etc. We are not rich. We are subsidizing the person who wrote that comment. I'm totally fed up with this situtation and have suggested to my husband that we sell our home, move to a lower-tax, lower inflation area, lower cost area and let the poor idiots like us, who are trying to survive in a metropolitan area while paying the AMT, support us for a change. I'd like the person who wrote that comment to pay my bills for a month and then tell me how rich I am.3/13/2007 09:24:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Chris from Tampa should go to the the CNN cost-of-living calculater and see how much little he'd have to earn in Tampa to approximate the $200,000 per year earned by the couple in New Jersey. And that woman should liquidate her $1.7M and move someplace else? Leave her home, family and job to migrate to a low-cost area? My husband and I could liquidate, too, at age 57 and 56, respectively, and have, not as much in assets as the NJ couple, but apparently more than enough to impress Chris in Tampa. Wouldn't it be nice, however, if instead of requiring me to turn into a migrant worker in my middle-age, the government instead recognized that expenses are higher in my hometown thanin Tampa and, instead of giving me the choice between bleeding to death and leaving the only home I've ever known to move to one of Chris' low cost paradises, allowed me to pay taxes proportionate to those paid by Chris and his buddies in Florida. I'm subsidizing you, Chris, and so is that family in New Jersey. It's you who are the freeloader.3/13/2007 04:52:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|$175,000 a year just isn't that much money these days... that's just reality.

I can understand if someone lives in an area where the cost of living is much lower, and they look at this post and think "what are these people complaining about- they're rich!"

My wife and I have a modest 1500 sq. foot house (built in 1957) in a so-so neighborhood. It cost us $340,000. We live a pretty conservative life and spend responsibly (we couldn't care less what the Jones' are doing, and have no credit-card debt). Even with that being the case, it costs us about $6500 a month just to live a fairly low-key lifestyle. This is just reality. I suppose we could move to Montana... but are you going to leave your friends, family, and career behind to go live in the middle of nowhere?

And by the way, if we all did decide to move to Ohio to save money, all it would do is drive up the cost of living in Ohio (our presence would create supply scarcity).

We are very close to having to pay the AMT. We are not rich. True, instead of living paycheck-to-paycheck, we may be living every other paycheck-to-paycheck, but the Rockefellers we ain't!3/13/2007 05:06:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Congress and the President knew exactly what they were doing. Attributing to them a lack of economics understanding is incorrect. They understood the consequences then and now. The AMT is doing exactly what it was designed to do.3/13/2007 05:18:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Isn't it true that the states on the coasts are taxed to subsidize the farm states? We send a lot of our federal taxes to the center of the country in the form of agribusiness farm subsidies and corporate welfare. Cut those, and we'd be a bit closer to a balanced budget. We cannot because those low population "independent" states have disproportionate clout in the Senate.3/13/2007 07:17:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Pete - The idea that those of us in New York and other places hit hardest by the AMT are asking you in Kent, Ohio to subsidize us is completely missing the point - in fact, because more of us get hit here with the AMT, we are in effect subsidizing the rest of the country. That's what this whole thing is about. And I frankly don't think that's fair. I already pay extra for the fact that I live in an urban center - with high city and state taxes. Oh, and yes, I have to pay the AMT - and no, I am absolutely not wealthy. In fact, my husband and I are likely going to have to move somewhere else because we can't possibly afford to buy a home here.3/14/2007 05:34:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The unfortunate reality is that the great mass of Americana does not have a clue what competent fiscal and tax policy should look like, and elect politicians who are just as clueless or owned by PACs. Until the day that the social security system is privatized and people can opt out of the public system, and a responsible flat tax system is implemented the nonsense will continue and the populace will suffer3/15/2007 09:21:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Move to northeast Ohio...somewhere like Kent...where the living is easy, most school systems are terrific, the commute is short, home prices are inexpensive, and the salaries are pretty good! I liked living and working in New York City, but this is a better place to build wealth and spend time with family, whether you pay the AMT or not.

I remember sitting at the dinner table listening to my father chortle when the Kennedys and their allies in Congress lowered the top income tax rate from 90% to 70% in the early 60s. "They've tripled their net family income," he exclaimed. Then the top rate went down to 50% and kept going lower. Given the history of income tax rates from the 40s until now, 28% doesn't seem at all oppressive, even after removing many of the deductions. It's the Forbes flat tax!

I did live and work in New York City. If you are struggling at $175K, I don't think changing the tax system would help your situation. I say that because so many New Yorkers make much less and have fulfilling, joyous lives.3/17/2007 03:26:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|why not lower overall taxes
then issue bonds for whatever(iraq war,illegal immigrant healthcare,public schools,etc)
so that supporters of that activity can pay for it
you like the war you pay for it
you want to take care of the poor and sick you pay
better schools you pay
then no one pays for stuff that they dont want to
(like school vouchers or faith based charities)
a budget decided by revenue , not by assumptions will be true democracy because programs will only survive with real financial support,not political pressure3/19/2007 05:24:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This is not my idea of AMT reform.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/14/pf/taxes/amt_capgains/index.htm?postversion=2007031414
First of all because of the loss of the AMT exemption many people like myself are already paying 22% effective tax on capital gains.
These proposals preserve the appearance of the Bush tax cuts while making the AMT even more complicated to figure. If you owe AMT you ought at least not to have to pay a penalty for underpaid taxes because it is very hard to figure out how much you have to pay with all these complicated rules and it looks like if Congress passes one of these proposals, it is going to get worst.3/07/2007 05:27:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|A House Ways and Means subcommittee held hearings on the fixing the alternative minimum tax this afternoon. My colleague Jeanne Sahadi wrote a clear and concise guide to the options lawmakers have in dealing with the AMT mess, which you can read here. Check out this chart, which is based on data from the Joint Committee on Taxation. The blue line is how many people will be snagged by the AMT under current law. The red line is how many people will have to pay it if the 2001 rate reductions are renewed. (They are set to "sunset" in 2011.) Extending the tax cuts will dramatically increase the number of people who will have to deal with two separate tax systems, even as fewer and fewer people enjoy the benefits of the cuts. That's because without those tax cuts, more people would have a high enough tax under the regular system that they wouldn't be moved into the AMT. One thing to be clear about: This chart does not mean that the Bush tax cuts will actually raise the taxes of those who end up on the AMT. As Alan Viard of the American Enterprise Institute explains in his Ways and Means testimony today:
Suppose that, without [the recent tax laws], a hypothetical taxpayer would have a $100 tax liability under regular tax rules and a $90 tax liability under AMT rules. The taxpayer would then be on the regular income tax and would have a $100 tax liability. Suppose that those laws reduce the taxpayer’s liability under regular tax rules to $85 while leaving his or her liability under AMT rules unchanged at $90. Because liability under the AMT rules is now higher than the liability under the regular tax rules, the taxpayer moves onto the AMT and has a $90 tax liability.

Although these laws cause the taxpayer to move onto the AMT, they do not raise his or her tax liability, relative to prior law. On the contrary, the laws reduce the taxpayer’s liability from $100 to $90. Moving onto the AMT merely reduces the size of the tax cut, which would have been $15 without the AMT, to $10. In colloquial terms, the AMT “takes back” one-third of this taxpayer’s tax cut.

Even so, the AMT clearly erodes the constituency for extending the tax cuts. Not to mention driving people crazy. Update 3/8: Want to pin the AMT mess on the Republicans? Or maybe on the Democrats? Check out my post, "Alternative minimum blame."|W|P|117330648054569067|W|P|How the AMT might doom Bush's tax cuts|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/07/2007 11:30:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Because I live in a high property tax area and have 5 children I get killed with the amt.3/07/2007 11:39:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|One more thing, the amt doesn't allow
my 7 exemptions which is woth about 24,000 so 26% of that is about $6,000
which could be put towards their
education.3/08/2007 01:21:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I just got married this year and it looks like together we will make just over 100k. Is there any chance of an 11th hour fix to raise the phase in of the AMT for this 2006 filing year?

What was congress thinking by not indexing the AMT? I live in a very expensive part of the country with high taxes already and I have to get hit with yet another tax too!

Why is this not causing riots in the street yet?3/08/2007 01:57:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Are we back to Reagan's trickle down economics...

Valerie
UsVisionaries.com3/08/2007 08:54:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|While the American Express person's testimony is factual, it ignores the critical component of tax policy: fairness.

I am in the same boat as Allison. My marginal tax rate under AMT is 35% due to phase out of exemptions. A VERY wealthy, VERY high income individual with largely income from dividends and capital gains will still pay at a marginal rate of 15%. Even if the very high income is wage based, it will be taxed at a maximum marginal rate of 28%.

So...the Bush tax cuts did provide much higher benefits to the very high paid, and further favor investment income over earned income. Remind me why I voted for this guy?3/08/2007 10:01:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I'm hearing that some economists are reccomending ending the AMT and raising tax rates for everyone to keep it revenue neutral. That means to me, a single, childless person making $50,000 per year, would get to pay higher taxes in order to let families with large amounts of chidren keep their overly generous tax cuts. The fact is that families with several children pay very little in taxes comared to singles. The AMT simply washes out some of the tax cuts. I say, keep the AMT or get rid of all the tax breaks families with kids get. I should not have to subsidize families.3/08/2007 10:17:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|It is true that dividends are taxed at the 15 percent capital gains rate, but that is after they have already been taxed as corporate income, so that income is being taxed twice. The tax cuts didn't provide any "benefits" to anyone. It just let them keep their own money.3/08/2007 10:33:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The Bush tax cuts are a fraud. I never saved a penny in taxes because I've been paying AMT for years. Millionaires who make all their income from capital gains don't have to pay it, but the working class does. It's a transfer of taxes from the rich to the middle class.3/08/2007 10:51:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The serious issues facing this country will not be resolved until the people who vote realize that they are the problem and not the solution. A consumption tax system needs to be implemented.3/08/2007 11:01:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The AMT is completely unjust and its continued presence in our country's tax code seriously calls into question the competency of our Congressional leaders. Its primary failure is its inability to account for substantial differences in the cost of living across this country. For example, I live in a two bedroom "apartment" in New York, have over $100,000 in student loans, a negative net worth, and a child and a wife to support, but because I make $200,000 in compensation (which is not much in New York) the AMT strips me of most deductions. My tax bill is ridiculous and completely hinders my ability to make much financial progress.

Other aspects of our federal tax code that disallow for certain deductions when certain income thresholds have been surpassed (e.g., dependents, student loan interest, etc.) are also unfair, but the AMT is by far the most egregious.3/08/2007 11:06:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Frank, why would earned income be taxed at only 28% for high income households???

And income from dividends or capital gains has essentially been taxed twice: once when it was earned, and subsequently invested, and again when gains are realized or dividends paid.3/08/2007 11:07:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|And all of you who voted for him twice did so WHY?? Any middle class citizen like myself has suffered through this administration, and as Shawn has stated, "Why isn't this causing riots in the streets?" Because the simple mention of 'tax cuts' had everyone flocking to the polls like shhe to the slaughter.3/08/2007 11:16:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This is one of the biggest frauds in the tax code, gets so much press, and nothing gets done. The middle class continues to get squeezed, while the rich have their tax burdens reduced. It's part and parcel of the Bush presidency, smoke and mirrors. Widen the gap between rich and the rest. We have only to look at third world countries, and our own late 19th century history, to see what happens when an elite class of people continue to get extraordinarily rich at everyone else's expense. It is most preposterous when this is done thru the tax code. Come on Congress, WAKE UP AND VOID THIS TAX...3/08/2007 11:41:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The fiscal reality in this country is that the bulk of tax revenue comes not from the uber-rich or the working poor,it comes from the enormous numbers of upper middle class, wage earning , professional families primarily located in high population, high tax states on both coasts. The only equitable way of reforming the tax system is to have a value-added type consumption tax with an exemption for lower incomes so as not to make it a regressive burden. It can be overall revenue neutral and perhaps even have the added benefit of increasing personal savings and investment.3/08/2007 12:04:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|It's clear why Bush loves the AMT. It increases taxes for the middle class but has been designed to avoid taxing the rich. Remember, the rich mostly make capital gains and dividends, and THE AMT DOES NOT APPLY TO THAT. So the Bush tax plan is:

Rich: 15% tax rate + small amount state and local
Middle class: 28% AMT tax rate, + 15.3% total net social security tax (much of which is used for general expenditures) + a higher state and local rate piggybacked on the higher federal rate.

If you are worth less than 5 million dollars and you voted for Bush, you are a chump.3/08/2007 12:16:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The last line of my previous post should have read "Because the simple mention of 'tax cuts' had everyone flocking to the polls like sheep to the slaughter." And, on top of all this. gas is headed towards $3 a gallon, plus all of us in Southern Illinois are getting hosed by Ameren for an electric rate increase that has doubled most of our utility bills... This 'deregulation' wet dream of Reagan's that was supposed to have led to 'competition' has only led to companies buying one another, thus eliminating competition, making share holders more wealthy and creating monopolies.3/08/2007 12:21:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|We too have five children, from 14 through 22. I work a full time and part time job and my wife works 30-35 hours a week. Our college age children work part time as well. The income is needed to pay for education, but also pushes us into the AMT. This creates the absurd situation where we need to earn more to overcome the additional AMT tax burden. Of course, by earning more, we are taxed more.3/08/2007 12:22:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This is the United States of America, where Capitalism reigns supreme, not some socialistic state. The fact that our tax code favors Investment income over Earned income should suprise no one. Save and purchase real assets (things that produce income), and one will reap the benefits so rightly afforded us by our great, Capitalistic country!3/08/2007 12:22:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Excuse me but I'm thinking that BUSH doesn't write the tax code. Blame everything on Bush. It's the system Stupid. A National Sales tax is the solution. Everyone pays by consuming goods and services. Rich consume more that poor so they pay more tax. DUH3/08/2007 12:27:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The changes proposed to the AMT are simply part of the new economic caste system in the USA. Unlike previous class systems in this country, this one is based on the notion that income transfers are somehow evil, and that it will be up to the individual income classes to fund benefits within the income class, or members of each income class can "opt out" and pay for their own benefits. Meaning that the poor will be taxed to pay for their education, health and welfare benefits; the middle gets taxed for their portion, etc.. The very rich can, if they want to, opt out of the system and pay for their own education, health and other benefits. If you want examples take a close look at the Bush Social Security proposal, Roth conversion changes in last year's Pension Act, and the latest proposal on health insurance. Each of these plans allow the rich to opt out. And, of course, it is very easy for them to do so, (they're rich) but since the rationale of the Bush Administration is that if the rich get no benefit they shouldn't have to pay anything for anyone else's benefits the income transfers built into the tax code since WWII are simply vanishing. But, paradoxically, the burden for national defense should be imposed on all citizens...but don't the rich have much more to protect?3/08/2007 12:29:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I'm a CPA, and to put the future effects of the AMT in perspective, here's a nice little stat:

If the AMT is not adjusted, 60% of families who own a house and have 2 children will pay AMT by 2010.

For those who wonder why AMT has never been adjusted, the answer is simple. Politicians, both Republican and Democrat, are addicted to the money it generates. The 10-year cost to eliminate the AMT, if enacted today, would be over $2 trillion dollars. The only way to bridge that gap is to raise taxes or cut spending, neither of which is all that popular with voters. So, AMT stays in place, unindexed.

Fixing AMT is a lot like fixing Social Security. Everyone knows there is a very expensive problem looming, but the solutions are hard and unpopular. In the end, nothing gets done except some hearings that will make for good press but little substance.3/08/2007 12:31:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The Democrats control and House and the Senate. What is all this anti Bush BS. If the AMT is not removed, look to the people that run Congress. My eight year old undertands the functions of government better then half the people who posted to this article. By the way, my tax refund has increased by $5,000 since the child tax credits were pushed by President Bush. The middle class with children makes out much better under republican control. Clinton tries so hard for a middle class tax decrease but just could not do it. YA he tried real hard.3/08/2007 12:33:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Elias, I agree we must void the AMT. However, I fear the rantings of certain political candidates and members of Congress are perpetuating the myth that the gap is growing between the rich and the rest and that the Bush tax cuts further widen this gap. The Feb. 6 Wall Street Journal article by Reynolds and Henderson debunks this myth and sources (eg. CBO data)used to perpetuate it. Quoting a study done by the IRS Statistics of Income Division as well as one done by a Federal Reserve Board economist, the authors show that that percentage of income held by the top 1% remained the same or declined slightly from 1995 to the early 2000's. To equate our country with its opportunities to move between classes to circumstances in third world countries is misguided, at best.3/08/2007 12:52:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This is for Terry in Illinois,

Hopefully you are thankful that when you are 70 collecting Social Security that souls like myself sacrificed and had children (who end up working and paying taxes) to support you in your old age. What goes around comes around. By my supporting/raising 3 children and sending them to college to get good jobs in order to pay taxes, I am actually supporting you.3/08/2007 01:40:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why aren't the recommendations of Bush's own 2005 tax reform commission being used as the basis of AMT reform?

It recommended several much needed "fixes" to the U.S. taxation system, including simplification, elimination of the marriage penalty and AMT. Yes, the cost of paying for it was the elimination of some sacred cows: deductions for state/local taxes, restrictions on mortgage interest deductions, etc. However, the overall payoff would have been a much simpler, more efficient system than anything the Republicans or Democrats have yet proposed. It should be mandatory reading for every Congressperson.3/08/2007 01:42:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I enjoy the guys comments who has his head stuck in the black and white cloud,� Save and purchase real assets"

Well genius capitalism doesn�t work that way, in order for capitalism to work their must be a larger amount of people paying money for you assets or working at low wages so your asset remains an asset. DUH !Reciprocity is not in the capitalist vocabulary.

Capitalism is a game of musical chairs and we all know how it�s played and there�s only one winner, but the game needs all the other losers in order to be played.

Capitalism requires exploitation of something in order to work, third world countries, nature, workers, and taxes are all exploited for the benefit of the few. Lets not try to deny this basic need of capitalism.3/08/2007 01:45:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Elain in Stafford, VA:

The current tax system absolutely pillages the earnings of young upper-middle class couples without children in three ways.

1. The mortgage interest tax deduction has contributed to the gross inflation of residential realestate values, making it almost impossible for first-time homebuyers w/o family contribution to purchase without exorbanent amounts of debt.

2. Many deductions, such as student loan interest, quickly disappear as your income rises.

3. The marriage penalty quickly kicks in with two professional incomes.

Consequently, my wife and I cannot afford to have children. We have two mortgages and student loans to pay. The marriage penalty is actually hitting us so bad we've talked about getting divorced in order to reduce our tax burden, sucking away money that could be used to reduce debt.

The money being consumed to give your tax benefits and inflated home value is preventing the next generation of professionals from being born.3/08/2007 02:43:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|For Michael in Seattle:

You are correct: "Reciprocity" is not in a Capitalist's vocabulary, and thus it cannot be a game of musical chairs as you suggested it to be.

Capitalism is about the creation of assets vice simply moving assets around like musical chairs as you suggest, such as a business, that can obtain other assets and investments, and so on.

Yes, it is the Capitalists that create the jobs most people clutch to.

Which would you rather be, an owner or an employee?

I choose "owner."

p.s. Thank you for suggesting that I am a genius. However, I am merely financially literate, and choose to apply (and share) what I have learned.3/08/2007 08:18:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Erik in Baltimore. You don't have to feel special that you are being selectively pillaged as a young professional couple to be pillaged by the AMT. My Husband and I are an "old" professional couple and we are being pillaged by the AMT while trying to support our 2 children and send one of them to college. Even though we are supporting the next generation of replacement tax payers we get no tax benefits for doing so. Values that the AMT encourages are that it is more important to have a big mortgage (the interest of which is deductible under AMT) rather than the cost of nurturing children which is not allowed under AMT. This is banal.
My capital gains are taxed at 22% rather than 15% because above a certain level, for every $4 in income (whether from wages or capital gains) you lose a $1 in you AMT deduction. This results in a another 7% tax on capital gains.
Ever since the Bush tax "cuts" I have had to have substantially more money manually taken out of my check for federal taxes, because withholding as my company figures it without the AMT is pathetic. The only reason that the Bush tax "cuts" have not resulted in a huge increase in the federal deficit is because a lot of the taxes are made up by people paying the AMT. The tax cuts are nothing but smoke and mirrors. The AMT is unfair and makes is hard to calculate your tax liabilies throughout the year.
it would be fairer to either eliminate the AMT and end the Bush tax cuts, or go to a flat tax (just like the AMT), and make EVERYONE pay it.
I have suggested the same thing to my husband as another person mentioned: for tax purposes it would be much cheaper to get quietly divorced and just continue to live together. Maybe get remarried if AMT is ever ended before one of us dies. The Husband being a Catholic didn't go for it.3/09/2007 11:13:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|While many posters complain about the inherent unfairness of the AMT and the way it affects folks living in high tax states, I am unaware of any laws resricting the freedom of movement in the US.

If the income tax laws of your state are so terrible, and they also force you into paying the AMT, why not move to a lower tax state? States like Washington and Texas have no income tax, and their residents are much less likely to be hit by the AMT.

I can speak from personal experience that some years my wife and I do make over $175,000 a year, and we have no children, but we have never been subject to the AMT. And we sure as heck have never paid state income tax.

I often think of the US as being made up of 50 separate countries. If you really don't like the one you live in, vote with your feet.3/12/2007 12:13:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|"If the income tax laws of your state are so terrible, and they also force you into paying the AMT, why not move to a lower tax state? States like Washington and Texas have no income tax, and their residents are much less likely to be hit by the AMT."
It's not so easy to move and find another job that pays as much as the one you have now. Some of us still have pensions that might be imperiled by a new job.
Those of us with children to support often have difficulty moving away from the support systems that allow us to cope with with raising our children and having a full time job.
Lastly not all of us have jobs that even exist in some of the low tax states. There are not a lot of excess jobs floating around to jsut grap. One often has to find a job and move where that job happens to be.3/13/2007 01:22:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Erik, if your wife had a child and left the workforce your income would fall and you would gain deductions and you would not have AMT. I think that is a better solution than divorcing. Or move to a lower tax state or buy a house with cheaper property taxes or pay off your student loans. Saying you earn to much to afford kids is pretty funny.3/13/2007 02:33:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|"To Erik, if your wife had a child and left the workforce your income would fall and you would gain deductions and you would not have AMT. I think that is a better solution than divorcing. Or move to a lower tax state or buy a house with cheaper property taxes or pay off your student loans. Saying you earn to much to afford kids is pretty funny."
It's not funny. I am myself familar with Eric's situation. They would still have more money left after taxes if they merely divorce, live together and have a child. You don't have to advertize that you are getting divorced. You just need a certificate to show the IRS. This is the part that is banal. The AMT discourages marriage, and the nurturing of children by it's structure. By gaining another dependant, the AMT might kick in anyway. The deductions for you mortgage insurance are allowed on AMT no matter what your income is which your children are not. Maybe it would be "safer" to jsut buy a bigger house with a bigger mortage.
My husband and I have calculated our taxes as if each of us were single using Turbotax. The AMT in that case didn't kick in, and we both owed a lot less money in taxes.
Eric can just tell his wife that she should quit working so that they can have a child. That might merely imperil his wifes's future ability to earn a living in order to save on taxes in the short term. That is not smart for the long haul for her.3/13/2007 02:43:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|When Bush pushed the tax cuts for the rich (Cap gains, dividends, etc.), he was quite honest that he "would make up the revenue" with the AMT. The AMT falls on middle income taxpayers in blue states with high property and state income taxes. So while the Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby types get a tax windfall, we get screwed. Look at who the Bush tax cuts have benefitted. The "trickle down" approach was discredited decades ago. Hopefully, the Democrats will take some action to assist the middle class.3/13/2007 08:33:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The AMT is truly a bipartisan achievement in revenue collection. Anyone expecting anything but a temporary patch is delusional.3/15/2007 09:26:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|taxes must be paid. By everyone

10% income tax
(first $20'000 exempt)
10% capital gains
10% sales tax
(food and medical exempt)

nice and simple
any hope?3/19/2007 10:08:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This is not my idea of AMT reform.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/14/pf/taxes/amt_capgains/index.htm?postversion=2007031414
First of all because of the loss of the AMT exemption many people like myself are already paying 22% effective tax on capital gains.
These proposals preserve the appearance of the Bush tax cuts while making the AMT even more complicated to figure. If you owe AMT you ought at least not to have to pay a penalty for underpaid taxes because it is very hard to figure out how much you have to pay with all these complicated rules and it looks like if Congress passes one of these proposals, it is going to get worst.3/26/2007 11:29:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Consider the married person who has been frugal all their life, and has perhaps $400K in CDs and IRAs. The spouse dies. The person reaches 70+ and is required to take distribution from the IRAs. AMT kicks in (on top of the Medicare $3K doughnut hole) and s/he drops to the bottom of the middle class in terms of assets. Thanks a lot.3/27/2007 01:18:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|AMT has a hidden cost - tax preparation fees. I paid over $600 for tax preparation this year, whereas I used to be able to prepare my own taxes until I hit the AMT.3/06/2007 04:19:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|We journalists love giving names to generations.* It's a bad habit, but hard to resist once you get started. Just yesterday, I pronounced my children members of Generation Won't-Use-The-Potty. I think I've identified a powerful demographic trend among the 2-and-under set--I could give you more than three examples--but I'm hoping it's not a durable one. The international edition of Newsweek has a story on "The Lost Youth of Europe." (Hat tip to the highly useful Informed Reader.) According to the article, the kids of baby boomers are locked out of good jobs and can't afford decent homes. We also learn that Europeans, too, have a flair for demographic shorthand. In France, 20- and 30-somethings are known as "Génération Précaire," or the Precarious Generation. In the UK, they're the Boomerang Generation, Maggie's Children (that's as in Thatcher), and (ugh) IPODs--insecure, pressured, over-taxed and debt-ridden. In Germany, it's Generation Intern, because so many young folks can't snag permanent gigs. Anything we can learn from this? You could use it as an argument against expanding the social safety net here--the Newsweek story says that "the same labor rules that protect the jobs of the middle-aged shut out the young [and] dwindling birthrates mean there will soon be fewer workers to support the retirees." But the U.S. is a long way from looking like France, and we'd still have one of the most flexible economies in the developed world if we adopted universal health care and, say, wage insurance. The European experience does show that there's a downside to booming housing markets. (I mean besides the occasional crashes.) Says Newsweek:
Across the continent, spiraling property prices and poor job prospects are conspiring to keep youngsters living at home. According to the Italian Institute of Social Medicine, 45 percent of the country's 30- to 34-year-olds still sleep in their old beds and enjoy Mama's home cooking. In France, the proportion of 24-year-olds now living with their parents has almost doubled since 1975, to 65 percent. Even in the U.K., with its enviable record of job creation, the average age of the first-time home buyer has climbed from 26 in 1976 to 34 today. Property prices are now eight times higher than the median earnings of the ordinary twentysomething.
I lived in the U.K. for a couple of years, and even to an expatriate New Yorker the real estate market seemed insane. (Back in the five boroughs, we have not yet felt the need to come up with a slang term equivalent to the British "gazump"--meaning to accept a bid on your house and then renege upon receiving a better offer. As in, "I thought I had that flat in Rising Damp Mews, but I was gazumped.") So I was interested to read the work of economist Andrew Oswald of the University of Warwick, who contends that encouraging more and more home-ownership can be counterproductive. Oswald writes:
High home-ownership levels block young workers' ability to enter an area to find a job: if we look at countries like Spain, with its 80% home ownership rate, a key part of the problem is young jobless people living at home, unable to move out because the rental sector hardly exists any more. Here the difficulty is not that unemployed people are home owners; it is that unemployed men and women cannot move to the appropriate areas. Inefficiencies caused by high home-ownership rates impair the creation of jobs in more subtle ways. In an economy in which people are immobile, workers do jobs for which they are not ideally suited.... The resulting inefficiency is harmful: it raises the costs of production and lowers real incomes.
On the other hand, of course, home-ownership has given middle-class people a chance to build a nest-egg over time, and probably encourages more stable communities. But it's always possible to have too much of a good thing--whether you're talking about the European Dream of job security and income stability or the American Dream of owning a home. *Note: Obviously, this isn't the post on the Medicare funding gap I foolishly promised in my last post. That's still in the works.|W|P|117322744185743167|W|P|Generation Risk, meet Generation Chain-Smoking Ennui|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/07/2007 10:07:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This isn't only a problem in Europe. I'm 34 and I, my fiance', and many of my friends are in the same boat. We have Bachelor's degrees at a minimum, and most have Master's degrees and PhD's; so we're not talking about undereducated people. Most of us are working way-below capability, in jobs that have no real upward potential. And while Michigan has cheap homes because - well, the economy is horrible here and everyone's moving out - we look at places we can move to have a shot, and the home prices make it unlikely we can afford anything any time soon. Again, we're already in our late-20's and early 30's. I try to remain optimistic, and I believe we'll all figure out something in the long run (self-employment seems the only route), but the situation is not pretty for our generation.3/13/2007 02:48:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I lived in Germany for 3.5 years, and in Italy now for about 1. The main point is correct in terms of the cost of "social safety net" is a contributing factor, but there are many other factors being overlooked. First, the percentage of the total European population, especially young adults, posessing a college degree or higher is much less than in the U.S. Secondly, with the expansion of the EU, many of the common place jobs are now being outsourced to eastern European bloc countries since labor costs are considerably less. Third, there is a cultural aspect, especially in Italy, that makes a child staying at home highly social acceptable (where in the U.S. I think young adults are more encouraged to leave home). Finally, there is the aspect of what sectors of job there exist. For example in Italy, the richest area is the north, with a lot of concentration on the textiles. Most of these companies, and companies in general, are family-owned, or very small in size. The competition form global markets, especially China, is having an incredible impact on the Italian economy, and these small businesses, which unlike in the states, do not consolidate for a larger market share and competitiveness. The half-decade old single currency implementation of the Euro also hit all European countries hard. Since the adapation of a single currency within all different states/economies, individual countries are now having a difficult time control fiscal policy to combat inflation and recession. Since each country has its own unique situations, to adjust interest rates to combat inflation in Germany, may cause a recession in Italy, or vice versa.
In conclusion, even though there is a heavy cost in terms of taxes to support their social policies of retirement of an over-populace pension population, universal healthcare, and support very inflexible labor laws/protection, the various cultural, social, education, and avaliable labor markets are all major contributing factors to account for the difference between the American and European current differences.3/15/2007 09:41:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|One of two things can happen. The Geezers will finally die off and release all their hoarded capital back into the stream, or, anti aging drugs will change all the geezers, Boomers and 30 something GenXers back into 20 year olds. At that point we'll be so happy going buck wild that buying a split level won't be so important any more. We'll all live in those MTV loft apartments for $100 a room.3/04/2007 09:58:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|Depends what you mean by "debt." 60 Minutes ran a Steve Kroft report last night about David Walker, the comptroller general of the United States. Basically, he's our accountant. Walker has been traveling the country warning that we're headed for a fiscal meltdown. In response, economist Dean Baker, blogging for the liberal journal American Prospect, unleashes his fists of fury:
60 Minutes declared war tonight on Social Security and Medicare.... [I]f they wanted to be accurate, the 60 Minutes crew could have pointed out that almost the whole horror story is driven by projections of exploding health care costs, not "entitlements" for the elderly (e.g. Social Security). As is clear to anyone who is moderately competent at arithmetic, the projected budget problems are due to a projected explosion in health care costs, not demographics. If U.S. health care costs were more in line with those in any other wealthy country, there wouldn't be much of a budget crisis to talk about.
I missed the show tonight, but if the web version of the story is any reflection of what viewers saw, the 60 Minutes crew actually does say that health care is the 800 lbs. gorilla here:
Part of the problem, Walker acknowledges, is that there won't be enough wage earners to support the benefits of the baby boomers. "But the real problem, Steve, is health care costs. Our health care problem is much more significant than Social Security," he says. Asked what he means by that, Walker tells Kroft, "By that I mean that the Medicare problem is five times greater than the Social Security problem." The problem with Medicare, Walker says, is people keep living longer, and medical costs keep rising at twice the rate of inflation....
So Baker and Walker agree, I think, that the way we pay for health care is basically ridiculous and that we can't afford to sustain our current spending patterns. The question is, what do we call this problem? Is this a fiscal crisis? Or a health care crisis? This sounds like an abstruse philosophical debate, but it has enormous political and practical implications. If you add the projected cost of future Medicare benefits to the basic federal debt and other obligations, you get some mind-bogglingly big numbers--in the neighborhood of $50 trillion. (See the slide from one of Walker's talks at left.) That's one way to ring the alarm bell, I suppose. Maybe all this bankruptcy talk will eventually get voters and policymakers focused on fixing the health care system, so that those projections don't come true. But talking about this primarily as an accounting problem--too much going out, not enough coming in--can confuse as much as it clarifies. The government could, in theory, solve most of its balance sheet woes by simply phasing out the Medicare program. But this country would still have a health-care financing mess. That's Baker's point. So should we just call it a health care crisis? More on that in my next a coming post....|W|P|117307133957728879|W|P|Just how big is the federal debt?|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/13/2007 07:45:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The Social Security Trust Fund is full of IOUs backed by the US Treasury. If the federal government pays back that money with a fair interest rate Social Security will not be broke in a few years.3/02/2007 04:41:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|I hesitate to open this particular can of worms, but there was a debate over the "FairTax" at the American Enterprise Institute this week. You national sales tax geeks out there--you know who you are, and I love ya!--can listen to it here. But this post isn't about the "FairTax". It's about something interesting William Gale, an economist at Brookings Institution, pointed out during the debate:
We had an episode earlier in this decade where the government cut taxes, and one of the arguments was that this was going to force Congress to cut spending. Exactly the opposite happened. Spending skyrocketed. Historically, that has been the pattern. When we cut taxes spending goes up, and when we raise taxes we cut spending and impose fiscal discipline on both sides of the budget. That's what happened in the 1990s.
So what's up with that? Why hasn't "starving the beast" worked? William Niskanen of the libertarian Cato Institute has suggested a possible explanation: Cutting taxes makes government cheaper--for now, anyway--and people usually want more of something when it gets cheaper. In other news: The folks at the Wall Street Journal editorial page really should debunk this.
|W|P|117287564025502165|W|P|Want to lower government spending? Raise taxes.|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/14/2007 03:48:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I thought the difference in the 1990s was that Clinton and the Republican Congress gridlocked Washington so that there were very few new spending initiatives (e.g. Hillary's healthcare plan). It didn't hurt that the Cold War was over and military spending was cut. In the 1980s and 2000s we had one party in control of the White House and Congress. Tax cuts and increased spending. You can blame it on the GOP but I think it was that there nobody there to fight the President and the President wasn't going to veto his own party.3/01/2007 03:13:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P| Maybe it's because you'd be bidding against this guy. To whoever left this at the Cafe Duke ATM: You won't be keeping that money for long if you keep paying those $1.75 terminal fees. You know your bank charges you an extra dollar on top of that, right? (Thanks to my colleague Sam Grobart for stumbling on this and donating it to Generation Risk.)|W|P|117278146551162514|W|P|Why you can't afford New York real estate|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/02/2007 02:15:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Wow! If that's what this person has floating around in their checking account, I'd be real interested to see what their investment accounts look like.

No worries though. There are lots of ways to avoid being priced out of the market.3/02/2007 03:40:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|How about "nobody rings a bell at the top". I think Allen Greenspan rang the bell a couple of day's ago.3/15/2007 07:03:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The reason his balance is so high is that he just got paid his wall Street bonus by direct deposit in the middle of February. That happens to us all before we move it to our investment accont3/15/2007 07:32:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why is the balance reading $0.00 though?-->

But many of the same people point to serious problems with the FairTax plan. (A sales tax is just one way to levy a consumption tax. Competing plans include the European-style value-added tax, or VAT, as well as variations on the flat tax Steve Forbes made famous.)

Critics claim the FairTax has two major flaws: It wouldn't work in practice and, even if it did, it wouldn't raise enough money. The first problem has to do with the fact that people cheat on their taxes; they do it now, and they'd find ways to do it under a sales tax. With all of the taxes we'd owe being lumped into one big sales tax, lots of people might be tempted to try evading it, with black markets springing up everywhere.

Joel Slemrod of the University of Michigan's Office of Tax Policy Research says that only six countries in the world have tried to collect a sales tax north of 10 percent, and four of them eventually adopted alternatives like a VAT. Consumers might also be unpleasantly surprised by all the things that get taxed: Not just milk at the grocery store, but legal fees, rent on an apartment, even health-care expenses.

[Congressman and FairTax sponsor John] Linder [R-Ga.] says the administrative problems with a sales tax have been over-blown. Really, he asks, is your local big box store going to help you cheat on your taxes? And the FairTax frees millions from filing tax returns and gets the hated IRS out of their lives.

"I want a system that doesn't have an agency that knows more about you than you are willing to tell your own family," says Linder. This is crucial. FairTaxers seem to care as much, if not more, about getting rid of the IRS as they do about the economic and budgetary impact of reform....

A knottier problem is what the rate would have to be.

The FairTax bill pegs it at 23 percent in order to fund the government at current levels without raising the deficit. (If you think of the FairTax like a state or local sales tax, you'd say that this is a markup of 30 percent on prices at the store. See the chart above.) But economist William Gale of the Brookings Institution says that this number is way, way too low. "They're telling kind of a big lie about tax reform," he says.

Gale calculates that a 23 percent rate would blow a $7 trillion hole in the budget over 10 years, and that a more realistic rate is 31 percent, and higher still if you allow for evasion. And if lobbyists convince lawmakers to exempt things like health care or other necessities--a real possibility, given the culture of Washington--the gap looks even bigger.

FairTaxers respond that Gale isn't taking into account the huge economic growth they believe would occur once the tax system started encouraging investment. And besides, they add, whatever rate you'd pay is comparable to what you now pay. Counting Social Security and payroll taxes, your marginal rate may be north of 30 percent. "To talk about [sales tax rates] independent of what we're currently facing is slightly unprofessional," says Boston University economist and FairTax supporter Laurence Kotlikoff, speaking of Gale.

Kotlikoff has recently written a paper claiming that Gale was wrong and 23% really is the right figure. This is based on a complex set of calculations and data crunching, and I'm not going to try and guess who's right. But in a recent AEI debate, Gale argued that even if Kotlikoff's baseline number is right, it's still based on some optimistic assumptions about tax evasion and ignores legislative erosion--that is, the tendency of legislators to create more and more exceptions and loopholes. Kotlikoff and Gale are both good economists, but I think Gale is especially persuasive in his judgement of how Washington works.|W|P|117362543932954104|W|P|The "Fairtax": Not the easy answer|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/12/2007 04:09:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If it were not for the interest payments on all that national debt (interest payments alone - not including principal), I calculate that the national sales tax could have been 19.5%. Those of you who say the national debt isn't important, remember that next time you claim it doesn't matter.

If the military budget were set at 2% of GDP like most other industrialised nations, the sales tax could be reduced to 20%.

If the budget were set at 2% of GDP, and there were no interest payments needed on a national debt, the sales tax could be 17.2%.

A sales tax could be better implemented by establishing a two-tier sales tax: one between the distributor and retailer (say, 12%), and one at the retail sale level of 10%. A 10% sales tax at the point of sale may be far more palatable.

Having said all that, I think a national sales tax is a bad idea. A flat tax with a largish standard deduction that minimizes its effect on lower-income people would be a much better way to go. Just for the sake of argument, we could say a standard $12,000 deduction ($24,000 for married couples) and $3,600 per child. Those are just some numbers out of thin air for argument's sake.3/13/2007 01:22:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Brandon,

a. By your spelling of the word industralised I take it you are a Brit. Nothing wrong with that, but quite honestly I don't need to hear your views on US taxation policy.

b. The reason the rest of the world's military budget is 2% of GDP is precisely because the US's is much higher.

So you go back to your graduate poli-sci classes at U of M. You keep dreaming about a world where we have bake sales for the military and let the real world issues be taken care of by adults.3/13/2007 01:33:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Pat,
You're very wrong about cheating under the FairTax. Since this tax only applies to new products, for the most part, cheating would involve first THEFT and then tax evasion. Use your head for heaven sakes. What on earth would any manufacturer or vendor stand to gain by NOT collecting the FairTax? I suppose they could charge a price that included the FairTax, but not turn the taxes over to the government; but, exactly how hard would THIS be to detect? Compared to illegal AND legal evasion going on under the current code, cheating under the FairTax would be absolutely miniscule. Fact is nearly every American filing a long form cheats. If they not cheating by definition, then they're guilty of defeating the "spirit and intent of the law". For instance people write off vacation travel expenses by going on an job interview during their vacation. The IRS simply can't prove they never intended to take the jobs, can they? The list is beyond comprehension.
As for not collecting enough revenue, is, or could there EVER enough revenue for our insatiable government? Honestly, if the revenue is truly short, congress simply raises the FairTax percentage; what could be easier? It's not only fair, it's honest and transparent. Unfortunately, these are qualities not found in ANY program or responsibility EVER undertaken by our government. That's why we'll never have the FairTax. The rest is simply an extraneous and irrelevant smokescreen...paulb3/13/2007 01:39:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Brandon,
Please read the FairTax proposal before making such ridiculous comments. The FairTax proposes a "prebate" so that no one pays any tax until they've spent more than the inflation adjusted "poverty level". It is NOT regressive in any way...paulb3/13/2007 01:57:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Finally, let us get on with some other news other than the sub-prime real estate deal. Hopefully there is more financial news than sub-prime, enough is enough!3/13/2007 02:18:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Your paragraph describing the "whole financial system" probably holds the key. Are we talking about a "chain reaction" that will cause a lot of pain? Or is this an example of a portfolio approach where the risk is spread across a wide base. I think it is the latter. The US financial system has taken some hits such as the Savings & Loan crisis a couple of decades back and survived.3/13/2007 02:28:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I am now retired and living on a pension and my savings which are giving me divedends and interesr. I am spending not oly my gains, but the principal which I ALREADY HAVE PAID TAXIS. Under any of these scheems I will be doubly taxed. Any scheem of saving recipts, and other paperwork makes the systen as compex as it is now thus eleminating one of its arguments. If thgere was a VAT or cosumption tax on investements over a certan value could make it attrractive.
In addition people would buy thara yachts, say it is needed for busisness, and get away with everything,3/13/2007 02:47:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|A Fair Tax of 30%+ is ludricous and insane! Add to that state sales tax, tax of gasoline, SS, and medicare and we all would be paying 50%+ tax. This tax would give the Feds so much money (about $3 trillion) that they would "know what to do with it" (waste it as usual). The IRS is an outdated agency that needs to be eliminated. We need some sort of fair tax system, bur not a system that wouyld cripple the average American family. I think a Federal Straight Line tax rate of about 20% is about right, however, a caveat that "no additional form of tax would be levied on each citizen"...My wife and I currently net about 60% of our gross income; when sales tax, excise taxes, and tips are figure into our net income, it approches 50% of our gross. I have spent over 400 personal hours doing my Federal taxes this year-this country is quickly killing itself via mismanagment and awful planning. I think a streamlining of congress is also in the offing!3/13/2007 03:28:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|#1 reason why a NST won't work: " it's still based on some optimistic assumptions about tax evasion and ignores legislative erosion--that is, the tendency of legislators to create more and more exceptions and loopholes."

How else will politicians get their donations?3/13/2007 03:55:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Get rid of the current tax system and the IRS. While the fair tax sounds interesting it isn't the answer either. I believe we should have a standardized flat tax so that everyone pays the same percentage of their income. Whether you make 10 or 100K you pay the set rate, period. No loopholes, no tax avoidance, no politicians lying about it, and most of all no mega-bureaucracy trying to decipher it all. Maybe then we could get something done.3/13/2007 05:04:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|"Fair tax".....what a waste of time....like the politicians are going to give up their main source of power.3/13/2007 05:20:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Regressive and promotes too much saving which would overly reduce velocity of money.3/13/2007 05:27:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Paul B. Blanch:
I didn't make a complaint about the FairTax(tm) being regressive. My problem with it is that no one will pay a 23% sales tax at the register. I did, however, make a suggestion about a two-tier system of sales taxation that might be more palatable. Perhaps you ought to actually read what I say before you make such "ridiculous comments"?3/13/2007 06:06:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Ed from Las Vegas:
I'm not a Brit, and am, in fact, a full American born and raised here. I have every right to make any comment I would like about U.S. taxation policy. Don't make idiotic assumptions. I do, however, have a preference for the Queen's English.

Also, I have no idea what you're trying to say with your comment, "The reason the rest of the world's military budget is 2% of GDP is precisely because the US's is much higher."
The U.S.'s military spending is approaching 5% of our GDP. Around the world, most industrialised nations spend about 2% of their GDP on their military. Britain and France are the "big spenders" outside of the U.S., each at about 2.5% of their respective GDP's.

Now, I am also not a graduate student at U of M (though I do hold a graduate degree). Your arrogant comment about "let the real world issues be taken care of by adults" is completely uncalled for, immature, and - if anything - demonstrates that you're clearly not one of the adults who should be discussing real world issues.3/13/2007 06:18:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why is the supposition generally made that the fruits of our labor belong to the government at current tax levels regardless of the tax structure. Any system that makes it obvious how grossly overtaxed we are deserves consideration. Is there a moral or ethical foundation for disguising from people what taxes they are actually forced to pay. The biggest problem with FairTax is that it will be implemented without rescinding any of the taxes it is meant to replace.3/13/2007 06:39:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Fair Tax my posterior! Think of the person who has saved diligently for an entire career, paid taxes on the earnings that he has saved and on the investments he has made, and is ready to retire. Now he gets to pay taxes all over again as he spends his savings.3/13/2007 07:08:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|First of all you have to remember something. For less than 2 billion dollars the IRS collects over 3 trillion dollars in taxes. Not bad huh?
Second, what would a sales tax do to our economy? Maybe not forever, but at least for the first 6 months or so.
Third, if you examine the VAT in most European countries, there are ways around the tax, like buying a six pack of beer instead of a single.
Finally, The people that use money to feel powerful, especially someone else's money, have no problems creating new taxes, giving up old methods appears to be very painful.3/15/2007 10:18:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Anyone who advocates a VAT has obviously never lived in a tax regime where they had to pay a VAT as a business nor do they understand the mechanics of a VAT except at the Walmart checkout. I lived in Jamaica for 18 years and they instituted a VAT as a similar miracle cure. (Sweden instituted a VAT in 1967 of 2% and promised to revoke it when they were solvent. It now stands at about 23%.)Problem is, a business person has to pay VAT on the full price of an item and then petition the government for the refund of that portion they didn't add value to and wait for the government to send the refund. Yes, you read that correctly even if it didn't make sense. THAT is how a VAT works for everyone but the consumer. It spawns this massive bureacracy that puts the IRS to shame and makes over-payers (read everyone) lenders to the government. This is the nastiest, most confusing tax regime imaginable condensed into a few sentences. Being condensed into a few sentences doesn't make it sensible. It only makes it short to explain.
My suggestion (and this is copyrighted, patent-pending and trademarked so I can get my royalties)is based in part on an historical precedent. When the Mongol hordes occupied a country the deal was they wanted 10% of your gross. Period. If you messed up they ate your children, did unspeakable things to your women, left your mother-in-law alive etc. Very powerful incentives for paying up. (With an anecdotal aside to Jamaica again- when I was there during the Communist/Socialist years duties were 174%. When the good guys took office, they harmonized tariffs at 10%. They both collected the same amount of money- on the same goods. That should tell you about the incentives for evasion.) Anyway re the "Ghengis Khan" tax- everyone pays 10%. Period. Or the government eats your children.I don't care if you are an elderly, blind, gay priest with an African father and a native American mother and have nine kids- 10%. Nor do I care if you are GE or Halliburton or based in Abu Dhabi- 10%. You made 10 mil last year. Move the decimal point one place. One mil please. Sold your house? 10%. Bought a house? One of you pays 10%. Stocks? 10%. Bonds? 10%. Inheritance? 10%. Bag of wood screws and some tarpaper? 10%. Every step of the way. Every transaction. Every transfer. Every sale. Period. Or we eat your kids. No deductions. No exemptions. No paperwork or formulas. Move the decimal point. Period.
How does that stack up mathematically? (I'm a mathematician) If the velocity of money in an economy is about 6 to 1, a dollar is going to generate about 60% in revenue through a year although each transaction is only 10%. Sort of an additive effect. Actually it is more complicated. For example: Manufacturer A sells his product (a component) to Manufacturer B for $1.10. "A" gets $1 and Uncle Sam gets 10 cents. Manufacturer B polishes this component and sells it to Manufacurer C for $2.20. "B" gets $2 and Uncle Sam gets 20 cents. Manufacurer C irradiates it with Gamma rays to make it more healthy and sells it to Wholesaler D for $3.30. "C" gets $3 and Uncle Sam gets 30 cents. Wholesaler D sells it to Retailer E for $4.40. (Do you detect a pattern yet?) "D" gets his $4 and Uncle Sam gets 40 cents. The retailer sells this gizmo to Joe Sixpack for $5.50 The retailer gets $5 and Uncle Sam get 50 cents. Thus this $5 retail transaction has generated $1.50 in taxes or about 28%. And the consumer didn't get stiffed for the full amount. And guess who paid the balance? Corporations. The most evasive of them all. Who couldn't like a system like this? A pol could get elected on a platform like this. We could be a real functioning country again with real investment. Of course in the real world it won't be as simple because prices don't end in zeros but we have calculators to do that. But I bet a fair number of people can do 10% far easier in their heads than my current sales tax of 6-7/8%. We could disband the IRS, H&R Block and legions of tax attorneys (or feed them to the Mongols). The rich would pay more than the poor. All men are created equal. All that good stuff. Or we eat your kids. BTW- copyrighted, trademarked, patent-pending and I retained Ghengis Khan as an intellectual property attorney. Utilize this Uncle Sam and pay me my lug for solving big problems- on which I'll GLADLY pay 10%.3/15/2007 06:02:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why wouldn't our government want a flat tax? Politics? It would upset everyone with big deductions?

Maybe...

Actually, I think it's because our government in our glorious "land of the free" has discovered that subsidizing "desirable" behaviors through tax deductions and credits enables them greater influence over people without people screaming about civil rights violations or the burgeoning welfare state.

Imagine you have no mortage (I know, it's hard), but the government wants you to have one. People with mortgages are less likely to quit their jobs or in general be irresponible. So the government decides to fine you thousands of dollars a year for having a mortgage.

Perposterous? Well, who do you think is paying for all the mortgage deductions?


Or imagine if the government wrote a check for several thousand dollars every year to every person with a mortgage. What! This isn't a welfars state! Oh wait, all those people are getting "tax refunds." Same money, different label.

Now you can see why people like Steve Forbes, who believe in freedom, believe in a flat tax.3/15/2007 08:52:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I first would like to say that the Queens english is for Queens. Oh don't get all bent out of shape.

The Fair tax would really benefit the rich. Its a joke and it will never happen. A national sales tax is as mentioned a consumption tax which is obviously a regressive tax. I worked for many years in an international tax department and have worked with tax systems all over the world. A VAT tax is not the answer. The still have income taxes in most of the countries with VAT. Also if you had one tax rate it would be so easy to up the rate and thats exactly what would happen (as many of you mentioned). Our system is complex (being a CPA I love it). I graduated right before Ronald Reagans tax reform and got a job with a big Eight accounting firm. My grandfather, the kind man he was, told me that I won't have a job soon. I asked one of the tax partners what Reagans tax fairness and simplification act would have on our industry and he said any time they have simplified it, it got more complex. And he was right, becareful what you wish3/15/2007 10:08:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If america would get off of it's socialism and go back to republican democracy(translated, change from and entitlement system to an incentive system) the tax rate would be 15 percent without significant changes in any other spending(including military).
The liberal left still wants people they control because they say we are too dumb to handle it. And of course they are the ones smart enough to know best. But for the most part their entitlement mentality is responsible for our current situation. Not spending on the military. There will come a time around 2040 when entitlement spending which reach upwards of 70 percent of the gdp. The fair tax rate will work better than the IRS because it will cost less to operate as well as collect.3/15/2007 11:44:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|As Mark Twain wisely observered, there are statistics, damn statistics and lies. Anybody who does not support the abolition of the IRS and a national retail sales tax is a damn fool and should have his/her citizenship revoked.3/20/2007 12:28:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|What is it with the name 'Brandon?'

Brandon, Ann Arbor -
A. People will be more than happy to pay 23% (actually 30%) because it will be with money that has NOT had income tax deducted.
B. Your two-tier system is a terrible idea. The beauty of the Fair Tax is that it is simple to administer and enforce. What would happen in your idea if there were 4 or 5 layers of distribution as part of the production cycle. (Nice grad degree - DUH)
C. The comment about military spending was pretty clear to me, if the US didn't spend at the levels we do, our "allies" would have to pick up a much larger portion for their own good. (Although really, with France, would it matter?)

Brandy, Mass. -
Maybe the people who are about to retire, as you mentioned, who are going to get socked twice, are be treated completely fairly, as they are part of the generation that rang up this HUGE national debt. Just sayin...

The Fair Tax would be the greatest political move in this country in over a century. Anyone who doesn't like it, shut-up, find your receipts, and go play with your Turbotax.3/20/2007 10:43:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I agree with Brandon that a flat tax is better then than a national sales tax; however, I will take a national sales tax over the IRS. But this is not what we need to focus on.
What we need to do people is reduce government spending at all levels or the American way of life is doomed.3/09/2007 04:47:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|I dropped by the New School University this morning to see a panel discussion on the state of the U.S. economy. The line-up included Nobel Prize winning economist Robert Solow, CNBC's Larry Kudlow, economist and superblogger Brad DeLong, and Robert Hormats of Goldman Sachs. Former Nebraska Senator Bob Kerrey, the president of the New School, moderated. The general view from the panel was that the economy is in fairly decent shape, but that during the Bush administration we've squandered an opportunity to invest for the future and to improve our fiscal health. I'm guessing "Goldilocks" Kudlow doesn't sign on to the second half of that formulation, but I came in near the end of his opening remarks and he left before the discussion really opened up. That's a shame--it might have been a fun debate to watch. In any case, I picked up some interesting insights: Consumption taxes are coming. That's the forecast, at least, of panelist Robert Shapiro, a former undersecretary of Commerce during the Clinton administration. He thinks we're likely to see two additional federal taxes imposed in the next 20 years. First, a carbon tax to address global warming. Second, a "value added" tax just to pay for Medicare. "Under anything like the current political constraints, we will have to find enormous new resources to pay for Medicare," he said. "And that's how you get to a VAT." A VAT is similar to a sales tax, except that the money is collected from all the businesses involved in making and distributing a good. (To a consumer, it can still look exactly like sales tax, depending on the design.) According to Taxing Ourselves by Joel Slemrod and Jon Bakija, almost every other industrialized nation uses a VAT. Shapiro's prediction for a Medicare VAT sounds pretty plausible. Of maybe it will be a bigger, broader Health Care VAT. As another panelist, Julie Kosterlitz of the National Journal, observed, polls suggest that most Americans would be willing to pay higher taxes in exchange for universal health coverage. And Kerrey, the long-time politician, said that the public is usually more accepting of taxes that are earmarked for a specific purpose. As I pointed out in an earlier post, if future tax hikes come in the form of consumption taxes, you'll pay them even if you stashed your savings in a Roth account. Maybe that's another reason for lawmakers to like them. Yes, China could be a problem. China has been lending us lots and lots of money, which in turn has made it easier for us to buy all their t-shirts, blenders and televisions. They do this even though our dollar is clearly overvalued; as its value falls, so will China's return on its loans to us. Most observers think that won't be a problem--the imbalance will unwind slowly as China's economy matures. You'll also hear that a falling dollar really isn't so bad, since it would boost the overseas demand for goods manufactured here. (We do still do that.) But DeLong pointed out that what matters here is velocity. What if China really isn't okay with lousy returns on its dollar-denominated assets? And what if it realizes this, as DeLong vividly put it, "in the middle of the night," in a panic? A fast decline in the dollar would still boost foreign demand for the stuff we make, but to benefit we'd have to shift a whole lot of our workforce out of the service and construction sectors (which would be hurting) and back into manufacturing. Just how quickly can we retrain interior decorators and Home Depot managers and turn them into auto workers? DeLong said he isn't betting on such a catastrophe. He was suggesting that we need some "fire insurance," just in case. Since I don't think State Farm wants to write the entire U.S. economy a policy, the only "insurance" would be to get the budget in better shape. DeLong's analysis poses a bit of a problem for liberals. (DeLong worked in the Clinton administration.) People like Paul Krugman and James Galbraith are arguing that Democrats should lose their obsession with balanced budgets, so that they can get big things done if they win all the marbles in 2008. And it's true that deficits aren't always so terrible. But this would have been an easier case to make in 2000. As it stands today, deficit spending for health care, education or the rest of the Democrats' wish list will have be piled on top of the deficits generated by what DeLong calls Bush's "three big projects:" tax cuts, the war, and Medicare Part D. Why you can't afford New York real estate, part 2. Bob Kerrey said that on the island of Manhattan, 16% percent of the population works in finance or insurance, but that those people earn 65% of the borough's income. I'm not sure where he's getting those numbers, but they certainly sound about right. One common response to concerns about rising inequality is to say that it's just a side-effect of our incredible system of higher education. The economic return for going to college or graduate school is very high--and who would really want it to be otherwise? Well, New York has no shortage of educated people. You can't swing a cat on 14th Street without hitting five or six people with advanced degrees. But a Ph.D. and six bucks will just about buy you a Metrocard in this town. Teachers, nurses and scientists--productive people with lots of training--are barely hanging on here. It's important to reward people who invest in their brains, but is it just maybe possible we're rewarding the narrow slice of smart people who invest in MBAs a little too much?|W|P|117347734960819378|W|P|The two new taxes you'll be paying by 2027|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/09/2007 06:08:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Many college graduates toil for low wages; I have a degree and earn my state minimum wage. So who says college graduates deserve big bucks?3/09/2007 06:56:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|*Yawn*, Hey Pat, where's our red meat? You know, fire and brimstone right wing stuff like abolishing Social Security and Medicare? Your going soft... and its making for sleepy articles.3/10/2007 12:42:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The proposed military budget for the coming year is $625 billion. If we ran our military budget at the same level as most other industrialized nations - about 2% of GDP - we would eliminate the deficit altogether. Next, restore the "death tax" and increase it with the stated purpose of paying off the national debt; the baby-boomers borrowed against the future (our future), and it's time for them to pay up on their loans. Eliminate the AMT. Institute a 2% national sales tax to help pay down the national debt sooner (so there is less interest paid out) and create a single-payer health care system in the U.S. to ensure everyone can have reasonable health care and to take a huge burden off of corporations - especially small businesses which are the heart of America.3/10/2007 11:29:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Without the military there are no colleges. No all night raves. No bad reality TV shows. No real estate deeds. No foul rap music. No equal rights. No suing your neighbor because his dog watered your lawn. What anchors everything in the US is the Constitution and the ONLY thing that maintains it's ultimate survival and it's status quo is the military. That's it so get over how much it costs to maintain it, especially coming from people who will never serve in the first place because your too narcissistic. It's not maintained by sniveling college students or Professors whining about not being left wing enough in an article. You want to get financially stabilized? Exercise some self control and stop the ridiculous housing lending that has driven home prices way beyond anything close to what they are worth. 1.4 Trillion in loans using foreign money to finance millions of Americans so they can go out and by overpriced homes they can't afford. Way to go America! And when you default on those loans, the bankers will run to the Govt., and get mostly paid off and stick the rest of us (who were smart enough not to buy an over priced house) with the tax bill to pay for it. Thanks. The bankers and realtors who pulled this stuff will walk and if it doesn't destabilize the world economy in the process I'll be surprised. Fix that. Try and get 100's of millions of spoiled rotten Americans to show some self restraint in their deeds and actions and put society above themselves in their daily lives. Try and get them to turn the other cheek and realize life isn't perfect and that's just the way it is. Fix the frivolous lawsuits that lawyers and unscrupulous people bring that is crushing manufacturing and dozens of other industries. Implement a "loser pays" legal system in the US to eliminate frivolous lawsuits so the lawyers have to pay if they lose a case. Wow! What a concept! A lawyer that not only doesn't get paid if he loses a case, but is personally liable to the victors of the case for their losses! Check out the legal system in England. Freedom? Most young people don't know what the word means. It used to mean live and let live (but that only works if you actually turn the other cheek and respect other peoples opinions and privacy). Instead, we cram political correctness down everyones throat, which is not freedom, but a social engineering experiment gone wrong. Balance. Common Sense Self Control. Humility. Hard Work. Honesty. Sacrifice. Teach that to the next generation.3/10/2007 01:25:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|You pay more to those who bring in the bacon. As America currently does not do any productive manufacturing anymore and survives on the arbitrage of the dollar against the yuan the entire country is getting fed by the tricks Wall Street is playing on the Chinese. I think the financiers deserve all their salaries as their shell games are all that is keeping the American populace off the streets and well fed3/10/2007 09:09:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|rick, you don't need a large military to have a large well functioning economy, look at japan. look at the scandinavian states. You will see every period of history when a superpower rises, the next thing that occurs is imperialism. The us has stretched itself too far for imperialistic gains, while neglecting domestic issues. we don't need more military rick, i'm sorry, that will create the downfall of society and the downfall of liberty. But i do agree totally about your social agenda goals pertaining to the ridiculous american legal system and our social structure "american way of life" (which is an idea based on gluttony, greed and oppression). Unfortunately ppl only survive in this current economic system if they are pawns or workers of others who hold power. god forbid you have your own idea. America is not the land of mental freedom and the greatest ideas anymore, it is a nation whos collective conscious has been stolen and a nation that is struggling to maintain its feeble power grip on the world.3/10/2007 09:25:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Other countries spend @ 2% on defense BECAUSE the U.S. basically covers the entire western world's defense needs. Europe? Japan? South America? No worries, Uncle Sugar will jump in if there's a fight.3/11/2007 05:36:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I am concerned about the future relationship with China. If they hate us so much aren't they setting us up to take an Economic Fall after fueling their rise to power through buying our debt and selling us cheap stuff at Wallmart?

By 2020 won't there be hundreds of millions of men without the possiblity of marriage?

With all that testosterone.... WAR
In space, Online, and Economically by taking our dollar and ushering in the 2nd great depression.

who will care about Medicare and Consuption taxes then... when hyperinflation hits due to bad budgets and a Dollar that china sinks.

My predictions for our Future. Unfortunately....3/11/2007 02:45:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|A note to those folks that have a simple solution to government funding issues (courtesy of the GAO):

http://www.gao.gov/cghome/d061084cg.pdf
I would hope that the level of discourse on this board would reflect more knowledge of basic economics. Simple concepts like NPV, the cash equation (income = spending per per period), and 'debt is eventually repaid' go a long way towards understanding the futility of tweaking the current system.

TANSTAAFL (with apologies to R. Heinlein)3/12/2007 03:45:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If I'm not mistaken I read that 80% of our foreign held debt is in the hands of EU and japan, with china holding some 5%... thats not a large enough chunk to do much.3/12/2007 07:51:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|We have the best system in the world. Those of you who want more taxes to pay for everything should try living in Europe. No one gets ahead because the governments there take 50, 60 70 cents on every dollar they make to pay for Health Care etc. Look at France, everything is an entitlement and they can�t even get people to work a 30 hour week without riots. I enjoy having a choice in a competitive marketplace like ours. Government does not need to provide us with everything. That is called Socialism and it does not work and never will. To all of you who want a healthcare system like Canada or the UK ask someone who lives there what it is like . . . . If you like 6 month waits for anything you will be excited.

Also, the sky is not falling people! Just because there is a deficit does not mean the country is going to go bankrupt! Do you know how much money the federal government BORROWED to fight WWII? Over $4trillion! Did the US all of a sudden shrivel up and die? No we did not, we prospered and became the greatest nation on Earth because of the current system. We do not need to change what we do just because the rest of the world has a VAT or socialized medicine. My humble opinion is that we should do exactly the opposite because the rest of the world does not work. So what if China becomes what everything thinks they will? They have a couple of billion people, but communism will prevent them from overtaking the US because their system does not allow the free and open exchange of ideas and thought. We are the best in the World even with our flaws and there is no reason to change. Get a grip and quit listening to the �sky is falling� crowd. It is just not true! Work hard and you will be alright3/13/2007 05:45:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Jack, Amen! Please do go and live in the countries you praise for their health care systems (and get a disease or two) and their great economies and then preach. On the issue of people with MBA's gettin gover paid: it is simply a matter of supply and demand and we all have the same opportunity to do as well as those on wall street do given the appropriate qualifications and talent. Not everyone can slam dunk like Michael Jordan and not everyone can become the next Warren Buffet.

China is a growing economic power but they will never be a great society like ours where chinese citizens can get thrown in jail for decades for something as simple as "disturbing social order".

Goto France, try to get a job there and see how easy it is or how well you like it (btw in france you pick your profession at a ridiculously young age, goto school/technical college for it/learn that skill and stick with that profession for the rest of your life with no other opportunity or possibilities as far your career goes).

Let's take another country as an example: Health care in Mexico is cheap and free for its citizens but its also a place where most of its citizens make a couple of bucks a day and barely make enough to survive while something like this is possible: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/03/12/mexico.slim.ap/index.html

I am not saying everything is fine here at home -- we do have our share of problems -- but we also have some of the brightest in the world and every day there are many many brightest and best in the world who migrate to the U.S to call it their home. For example: there was an article on CNN about Germany and how many professionals from Germany are migrating to the U.S -- more Germans left Germany than returned last year -- read it).

So i think we are and will be vigilant and we'll be alright.3/13/2007 08:01:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Pat Regnier,

I agree that we should reward educated people for being well educated. And I think the system already does that. But it's no secret that nurses, teachers, and scientists are undervalued. Doctors are paid too much. We allow too many lawsuits to go to court. We don't support teachers enough and pay administrators too much. America is addicted to money. The sad lesson we are teaching our kids is that if you aren't rich, you are a nobody. The media is much to blame for that. Too many gold teethed rappers and American Idol wannabes.

I have my MBA by the way and I'm far from what I'd consider wealthy.3/13/2007 08:11:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Jasmine in San Diego,

I agree with you! We do live in the greatest country on earth. Our system isn't perfect, but it is the best on the planet.3/13/2007 11:48:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Several posters have correctly pointed out that Japan and the European companies spend less of their GDP on defense than we do because they're getting a free ride off of the USA.

I will go further and point out that they have been getting that free ride for over 60 years.

If it were not for the protection of the United States, western Europe would have been swallowed up by the Communist block states years ago.

And not a one of them would have been able to sustain their socialist welfare states that some people in this country seem so enamored of if that DID have to spend as much as we have been spending on their behalf.

Most of them are mighty ungratefull for our beneficience to boot.

As others have said here, those who think the socialist way of doing things is so great are free to move to one of those countries and live it for yourself.

I don't want that crap imported here.3/14/2007 01:23:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The military is responsible for defending the Constitution. However, they are not and should not be the World's Police. Cutting the military to 'bare bones' gives us the ability to reduce the debt (forget the deficit) and to restablize the US economy. Add to that we should have strict tariffs against Chinese goods (upwards of 45%) to insure that US manufacturing jobs do not leave the country and to enforce the end of slave labor (China has a plan to 'relocate' people and they need jobs...) This, along with the end of SS and Medicare (yes, the end of the only National system of Healthcare that will only drive everyone into the poor house with NO health care.) Social Security was and is supposed to be a 'safety net' not an additional source of income when you hit 65, 66, 67 or maybe 70. There are enough 'programs' out there that any savvy 25 year old will be able to build their own retirement plan. We need to end the debt, and now. Clinton actually had a plan and it was working. Look at the rate of growth in the late 90s and compare it to the last six years. Some difference...3/14/2007 10:56:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Hey Jack from phoenix , nice work . I didn't think there were any sensible folks west of the mississippi.. America rocks , why ? because We can!! ..
Why don't you run for President rather than Mccain .. have a good one !!! Mark in Virginia ( where America started the right way !!)3/15/2007 12:26:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Rick Venus, Detroit, MI. when are you running for president? You my friend hit the nail right on the head. Best comment I've read.3/15/2007 01:53:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|While all the comments blamed others for our problems with the ecomony no one addressed the issue that the ecomony is a earn and spend circle. I believe instead of the Chinese we are headed back to the days of Rockefeller and Vanderbilt. Why should any one person earn 26 million dollars and then cut workforces not one of these supposedly highly educated execs see the big picture that its great to pull home a giant salary but for how long afterall by eliminating workers there will be less people able to demand my products therefore hurting the ecomony I agree they should earn a good salary but how much can one person spend. If we spread the wealth we wouldn't have to cut the workers to increase the bottom line. Afterall it is cause and effect with the cause being execs pulling in giant salaries and effect the working class now not being able to afford the products. The more that work the more that spend and keep the system humming.

As for Social Security and Medicare we need to stop abusing it and use it what it was intended for. I realize we have all paid in to the system but if you are pulling down say 50,000 a year in retirement do you really need that $700/a month check lets remember if we don't work together and not be greedy we can continue to build the greatest system in the world.

Go USA.3/15/2007 05:13:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|You dont tax the next generation for the previous two generations underfunded liabilities. Im not sure what the answer is but since only 12% of the population is 65 or older I have a feeling they'll be the ones paying.3/15/2007 05:13:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Who wants to live in Hilary's village? I don't. I appreciate the thought of making my own decisions and paying my own way. I raised my children, sent them to school and see them working at their careers. America the beautiful!3/15/2007 06:10:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To James in Tuscon,
You really think "Clinton had a plan"? I think his main plan was to get in the pants of teenagers by using his slick personality. As far as the economy goes, you might note that the stock market began plummeting in January 2000, when the falsifications of the "Clinton Plan" were becoming obvious. You see, the Clinton plan was for companies to lie to everyone about how much the new technology was going to increase .com's productivity over the next 20 years. Businesses followed Clinton's leadership in lying about, well, just about everything - some to the extent that they went completely belly up despite having billions of $ worth of business (MCI, Enron). The stock markets rocketed up from 1995 to the end of 1999 with nothing but a bunch of non-profitable .coms supporting it. Tax revenue increased as people paid extra taxes on speculative profits on stocks. The military was cut, placing our entire nation and way of life at risk to even minor entities like rogue terrorists. When people relized that all the speculative tech companies were never going to make a profit, the stock market tumbled and tax revenue was punished for five years because people could deduct their losses instead of paying extra taxes. The fact that we survived and did not have the economy devastated when we had to pay the bill for "the Clinton Plan" says a lot about the resiliance of America. The Clinton plan says everything about the man - the plan can be summed up in three letters... LIE.

BTW, I concur completely with those who have pointed out that we have provided for the military protection of Europe and they are ungrateful. I think they are ungrateful because they realize how sad their socialist lives are and wish things were different. But rather than blaming themselves for their selfishness (selfishness drives people to want socialism) they pick out the US to blame. We are a big target and can absorb many body blows. Socialism is generated by people who want the government to provide for them the things they have not earned and for which they cannot pay. I wish the government would provide us all with a brand new sports car. But don't raise my taxes, just raise the taxes on the rich!3/15/2007 11:15:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Other countries spend @ 2% on defense BECAUSE the U.S. basically covers the entire western world's defense needs. Europe? Japan? South America? No worries, Uncle Sugar will jump in if there's a fight.
Posted By John C. Los Angeles, CA : 9:25 PM

and we're dumb enough to pay for it. maybe we should just protect ourselves and use the money for other priorities3/16/2007 03:04:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Yep,

All that money we are spending fighting everyone else's battles, we could be using those funds here.

For instance:

The United States has a terrible intra-structure. We have Big Rigs taking up the highways (which were never designed for this) to deliver goods when this material should be shipped via high speed train. The trucks should only be used to deliver from local hubs. Think about all the fuel that would save.

I am in full agreement with the comments above about the legal system. I think you will find few people who disagree. As a juror on a BS personal injury case, I can tell you I wish I could have awarded damages to the defendent. I would have. There should be a penalty applied to cases which are totally out there.3/16/2007 12:12:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The U.S. Constitution states clearly what the Federal Government can or can not do. Taking U.S. tax dollars and supporting foriegn countries is not a stated as a right the federal government may do. So as you work and get taxed at 50% (that is all taxes combined), only blame yourself because you vote Republican or Democrat. Go register as an Independent !!!!!!!!!!3/16/2007 01:20:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|HI NOT ALL MBA'S MAKE A FORTUNE, MBA'S ALSO WORK IN THE NON FOR PROFIT INDUSTRY WITH FEW IF ANY BENEFITS, AND LEND THEIR BRAINS AND ABILITIES TO THOSE IN NEED.............DIANA RIORDAN COMMACK, NY3/16/2007 02:33:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Dave in Denver, Sooo right.3/19/2007 03:55:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|There is no such thing as the "common good" or "decision that is best for society." Society and the common good are abstract terms that don't apply to anyone. Although most Americans would be willing to pay higher taxes for universal health care, it's not the government's job to raise taxes to provide it. The people who want it should fund it privately, not force the people who don't want it to pay for those who can't afford it and didn't pay for it.

If you feel like certain professions are overvalued and overpaid, then why don't you give your money to teachers, nurses, and other workers? The capitalist system works to place "value" on things, although the value is determined through demand and supply also. Each person has individual values for products and services and it's not the government's job to find a compromise. It is the government's job ONLY to protect people and help maintain a free marketplace so that opportunities to present theirselves. The government has no right to take money from people who rightfully earned it through their own innovation and investment and give it to people who are "unlucky." Each person knows, going to college, the risks associated with their fields and degrees. If you don't get a job, then work harder, find other experience, or train for something else. The market should not cater to you if there is no need for your skills. That would be taking resources away from skills and products that people actually want.

Maybe no one needs $26 million dollars, but it makes no difference if that money is held by one person or 26 million. The money will be spent and distributed rather swiftly. Most millionaires invest their money or save it. Companies spend the money to hire new workers, create new products, construct new buildings; and banks lend out money to people who don't have it but want to invest it in buying something or also building something. There is nothing wrong with the current distribution of money: rich people reinvest their money to provide jobs to people so that they can make money and support theirselves. People who don't earn the money but may receive it through government handouts also invest the money by buying a car or a shirt at a store. The money ends up in the same place, so long as people are spending. The only difference is that the distribution currently allows people to keep what they earn, and socialist programs promotes an equality that doesn't even exist.3/20/2007 01:58:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Many of the world's problems can be attributed to the fact that incompetent people continue to have kids. In fact, the incompetent have a far greater birth rate. What defines incompetence? It's not limited to race, religion or geography. There are lousy parents from all races and religions. It's not money dependent, unless of course, there isn't enough for food, shelter and education (which is the problem for about 1/3rd of the world's population). In fact the super rich are often incompetent parents. If a person hasn't learned anough about the world to pass on to their kids, or doesn't have the time and patients to do it, the person is incompetent.

Crime, poverty, starvation, disease, war, etc. are all related to this phenomenon3/22/2007 11:32:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I am a boomer so it is too late for me, and it is too late for my (the excess)generation.
You younger people better wake up soon and stop the growth of government. We are well on the road to total socialism.
Start the change to:
1. More individual freedom and less government.
2. More quality and less quantity.
3. More saving and less consumption.
4. More working and less complaining.
Do your yourselves a big favor and don't vote for another baby boomer for President. Also, start thinking about a third party that wants to tell the masses the truth and start redcing the size of government everywhere. You are probably our last chance.3/08/2007 04:04:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|Hey, Patriot-News of Harrisburg, PA, it's supposed to be blogs that raid newspapers for material! (See last post.) Not that I'm complaining.
EDITORIALS ANGRY FOLKS: Day of reckoning on its way with stratospheric tax hikes There are some truly mean-spirited people on the Internet. Take this from James in Monument, Colo.:

"Let me offer my personal thanks to the worst generation (the baby boomers). You have [mismanaged] this country royally and we, your children, would like to tell you what to do with yourselves. Thanks for all the debt and irresponsibility. I hope your nursing homes treat you like crap."

What did Mom and Dad do to this guy? Spend his inheritance?

Well, yes, in a manner of speaking.

James in Monument was responding to Money senior editor Pat Regnier, writing on the "Generation Risk" blog (which can be found at www.cnnmoney.com). Regnier was offered this interesting bit of advice by Robert Gordon of Twenty-First Securities in New York City: "Draw a chart of tax rates -- if that was a stock, you'd buy it now."

In other words, taxes are headed for the stratosphere.

Click here for the rest of the editorial. You might even be quoted in it.
|W|P|117338938086323335|W|P|Reversing the First Law of Blogodynamics|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/08/2007 12:39:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|At yesterday's House hearing on the alternative minimum tax, Republicans blamed Bill Clinton for the ever-expanding reach of the AMT. (More on that here.) I suspect they were channeling this Wall Street Journal editorial:

Remember the 1993 tax hike that was supposed to fall only on the rich? In addition to raising gas taxes and Medicare payroll taxes and income tax rates, the Democratic Congress that year also raised the AMT: from a 24% flat rate to a dual tax rate of 26% on AMT income up to $175,000 and 28% on AMT income above that amount.

It's true that the 1993 bill slightly increased the AMT's family income exemption, but Democrats refused to index those exemptions for inflation. So the combination of the higher rates and the failure to index for inflation has caught more and more middle-class taxpayers in the AMT's maw. From 1992 to 2002, this Clinton stealth tax hike increased sixfold the number of filers paying the AMT, to nearly two million from 300,000.

A Joint Tax Committee (JTC) analysis requested last year by Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa shows that about 11 million more Americans will have to pay the AMT next year thanks to the higher post-1993 AMT rates.
Here's a response to that argument from Wayne State University tax law prof Linda Beale, who blogs at ataxingmatter.blogs.com. (The emphasis is hers.)
The Journal blames Clinton for the AMT because the Clinton administration did the sensible thing--when top rates were raised, the AMT rates were raised as well so that the AMT could continue to function parallel to the regular system the way it was intended to. (Clinton also increased the AMT exemption--permanently, unlike the Bush Congress.) If the Bush administration had applied the same logic that the Clinton administration applied, it would have lowered the AMT rates (and again increased the exemption permanently, because of inflation) when it lowered the regular tax rates, so that the AMT would have continued to function parallel to the regular system in the way it was intended to.
Discuss...|W|P|117337642770370090|W|P|Alternative minimum blame|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/08/2007 06:06:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Were the orginal designers of the ATM completely incompetent/ignorant or is there something more insidious going on by not indexing the tax to inflation? Is capturing more and more of the middle-class income really the goal?3/08/2007 06:22:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Don, your point is well-taken. I think the real problem is that noone in power has yet been willing to accept the huge downward revision in projected Federal Revenue that would result from AMT reform. Even just indexing to inflation would greatly affect that number, which would turn us as a nation from a Social Security crisis into a full-blown meltdown. AMT will have to be reformed as part of a comprehensive plan that addresses SS and Medicare, or no one in Congress will have the guts to endorse a bill that touches it.

Of course that would require Congress to finally confront the single largest problem with our nation's long-term fiscal health. That's like asking a long-term addict to stop smoking...3/08/2007 08:06:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|the fact that no inflation indexer was included in the original legislation and has never been included since is an indication of the prevailing level of economic understanding in both the government and the voting public. this is the same faith in the magic touch of government that has led to the social security and medicare/medicaid disasters. if we must have such coerced benefits, design them to be as slim and efficient as possible.3/08/2007 09:39:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|'Clinton also increased the AMT exemption--permanently, unlike the Bush Congress?'

HUH?

And this guy is a professor? Man I knew the education system was in trouble, but yikes a professor who can't distinguish between the executive and legislative bodies, that's a new low.3/08/2007 11:02:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If anyone with income of over $175,000 is so irresponsible that they resent giving back a mere 28% of their income to enable the country that made them so well off stay strong, they should revoke their citizenship and move someplace else. It takes more than brains and luck to make $175,000. A great justice system; a great educational system; a healthy, well-educated work force; a safe environment; and a strong military are all important foundational elements of every successful person's prosperity. It costs tax dollars to pay for the kind of environment that fosters economic success, and the properous should certainly be required to chip in at least a minimalist 28% of their more than adequate income to ensure that they contribute their fair share of the cost of running this great country.3/09/2007 12:06:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|It is obvious that John whose last comment is that the "prosperous should certainly be required to chip in at least a minimalist 28% of their more than adequate income" to taxes is ridiculous. This shows someone's true socialist colors. 1)**The AMT does not just apply to people who make $175,000.
The system is not indexed to inflation and that means a working family with income of even $100,000 could become susceptible to this tax. In some areas $100,000 may seem like a lot but if you have 2 kids, a mortgage payment, health care costs and live in an urban area where even a 2 bedroom condo costs in excess of $500,000,-the $100,000 is certainly middle class and not wealthy by any means.
2) Earning a sizeable income does not indicate that you should be obligated to pay the government any more in taxes. If you make that much it is because you are financially savvy and blessed with the skills to command that income. It does not give the U.S. government the right to take more of their money simply because they are wealthy. The problem is not that the rich need to be taxed more than everyone else and forced to pay what John's "guilt tax" for being so lucky, the problem is the government needs to stop wasting so much of our money on socialist programs and pork packed bills calling for bridges to no where. The government gets to do the one thing that I wish I could do. When they spend all of their paycheck (taxes), they just go to their bosses (the American public) and ask for more and they don't even have to ask for it because the can just take it if it isn't given to them by raising taxes. So John the problem isn't that the wealthy should feel guilty for making so much and should humbly hand over the hard earned dollars to the spoiled child that spent all his ice cream money and now wants more. The problem is the government needs to be held accountable for their outrageous spending because based on your logic there is no reason for anyone to strive to be successful or wealthy if they are expected to pay a guilt tax for it. However, the AMT is not a guilt tax for the wealthy but an ill advised short term tax fix passed by ignorant politicians, that much like our politicians today, were too concerned with their present condition to worry about how those in the future would suffer for their nearsightedness.3/09/2007 12:14:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|175,000 in san francisco ain't the same as 175,000 in kent ohio. Which is another problem with the tax system...3/09/2007 01:19:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|John...you don't get it. Your comment is even more irresponsible. That's like saying that everyone should pay the same tax rate regardless of income. Why should the people who work their tails off have to pay a higher rate while the people who don't work as hard and earns a lot less pay a lower rate? The AMT is penalizing the middle class. And it's actually hurting people who are getting married with dual earners and kids. This needs to be addressed pronto.3/09/2007 01:37:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I don't think you understand AMT and the income or actual income a person receives. If your income is over $175,000 and let's say your a sole proprietor who has expenses, your in a bad spot.
Your gross income may place you in the AMT tax rate, but your real income after all expenses may be $30,000 and that's what left to pay your taxes, living expenses, etc. The net result is far different than just assuming someone earned $175,000 and that all went into their bank account. The middle class is getting squeezed into the AMT tax rate. The tax should be indexed for inflation. This is simply logical. Social Security and Medicare should be handled on their own without regard to AMT tax.3/09/2007 01:47:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|"If anyone with income of over $175,000 is so irresponsible that they resent giving back a mere 28% of their income to enable the country that made them so well off stay strong, they should revoke their citizenship and move someplace else."

If you live in California $175k gross income hardly pays the bills when the average mortage+property tax is around $4000/month. what AMT does is to prohibit people from even deducting the property tax and state income tax thus double taxing.3/09/2007 01:48:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|What do you suppose is so insidious about a flat tax rate of 10%? Surely it is as easy for the poor to pay 10% of little as it is for the rich to pay 10% of a lot. Should you get a tax break because you are blind in one eye? In two? Because you are a widower? Again, 10% of what you earned seems like fair treatment to everyone involved.3/09/2007 01:52:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|What kind of review process do you have that let's someone comment with complete ignorance? The article clearly stated the professor was a woman, and the commentator calls her a man and suggests he is an idiot for not knowing the difference between the legislative and executive bodies. Clearly this post has no intelligence whatsoever (since the poster forgot that bills are signed into law and thus all parties must share the blame). I think I shall not return to your blog.3/09/2007 01:59:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To the person that believes that someone making over $175k should be taxed more to benefit everyone else is... We are talking about the AMT group, not the rich. Whether they are irresponsible is irrelevant. And fair share, boy, you should really look at all the loop holes in the tax codes for the rich in this country before you make that statement.

Now, consider this, majority of the people who are affected by the AMT are more likely to be the ones who continues to keep themselves updated in the market place and striving for new skills that will give them an edge. And less likely to become couch potatos! It's a shame that all the investments (opportunity cost) that they have made is to take on a bigger burden of taxes so that the less willing can enjoy their TV time or say to themselves that the government will somehow create more programs or tax codes to take care of the ones who lack desire to strive for the American dream.

Well, let's not tax the ones who are considered rich so they can continue to see their fortunes' multiplies. And let's not tax the poor, because their taxes won't make a dent in our federal budget. Let's tax the AMT group, because they are too busy to do anything else other than finding that edge.

I am one of those affected by AMT. And I strive for the American dream. Now, you tell me what is a fair share for my opportunity cost?3/09/2007 07:30:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The AMT goes back to Tip O'Neal as his way of offsetting the Reagan tax cuts. Subsequent complaints do not take the issue back to its route cause.3/09/2007 09:29:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I don't agree with every point of John's post, but he does make a very valid point about the infrastructure that gave the wealthy the opportunity to become wealthy. If the wealthy got that way just by "working harder" or being "financially savvy" then let's strip them of their money and send them to Iraq and see how wealthy they can become. The answer is: not at all. We all enjoy the infrastructure that allows people to become wealthy, and when you are truly successful at leveraging that infrastructure it is fair that you should do more to support it. Warren Buffett himself has made comments to this effect; this isn't coming from socialists.

I'd also like to address the idea that the wealthy "work harder". Most of the poor and middle class work harder than any of the wealthy. The difference? The wealthy have realized how to be capitalists in a Free-Market(tm) Capitalist economy. The poor and middle-class have not; they are merely the capitalists laborers. It helps a lot to know the real rules and how the game is really played.3/09/2007 09:39:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I'm shocked that no one has mentioned this: the 106th Congress passed a bill that would repeal the AMT, and Clinton vetoed it. See: http://www.house.gov/jec/tax/amt.htm

Given that, it's tough to argue that Clinton doesn't deserve blame. Of course, others do too.3/09/2007 10:28:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If politicians and economists would stop playing the blame game and work on the problem, we'd all be better off.

The bottom line is that we are where we are. Any relief in the AMT through higher deductions, more deductions or lower tax rates is tax relief. I'm not saying that it's not needed, but call it what it is.

I've heard so much more talking about who's affected and the history of the AMT than what can be done about it. It's very tiring. Same thing with the estate/death tax. So for all those people who have posted, let's hear what you have to say.

I'd say let's adjust the execmption up one time and index it to inflation from this point on. Call it tax relief, so with paygo (not that I believe Congress will adhere to it, but it's a nice theory), you have to cut spending somewhere to match it.3/09/2007 10:57:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|How much is enough? Here is how it goes:

Earn $175K and get taxed at 28% and 8% for state & Local (toal %36%)

Buy a house and get stuck w/ property tax.

Hold on to the house for enough time and eventually retire and sell the house. pay tax on the gain (unless i roll it into another house or take the 1 time exemption of %250K)

The govt is too big, and spending too much $$ on things the founders never intened govt to do.

Just my opinion.3/09/2007 11:24:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|What I do know is that under the tax rules that Bill Clinton and the Democratic Congress put into place, I NEVER had to pay AMT. The amount that was withheld from my paycheck plus some extra for the marriage penalty, was sufficient for my federal tax bill. I retained by deduction for state taxes and the personal decutions for my children.
The first year of the Bush "tax Cuts" all of a sudden, I lose both of my personal deductions for my children and my deductions for my state taxes, and I owe thousands of dollars in federal taxes. The estimated taxes that I sent in for my capital gains (figured at 15%) were not sufficient anymore because of the further loss in AMT exemption.
I'm sorry if the Republicans want to blame the AMT problem on the last Democratic admistration, but myself and other professional couples that I know did not have to pay any AMT until the Bush tax cuts. It was the differential that the "tax Cuts" created that threw people into the AMT. By structuring the tax cuts the way that they did, the Republicans backfilled the loss in revenue from the "tax cuts" with AMT revenue. AMT became a stealth tax, propping up the appearance of the "tax cuts" not contributing to the deficit as much as they would if the AMT werern't serving the backfill.
Bush just wants to preserve his outrward "legacy" of his "tax cuts" for the history books and blame the AMT "problem" that he himself created on someone else.3/09/2007 12:04:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Fair? We will only see a fair tax system when Congress implement flat tax across the board. You make so much, your taxed so much. Take out all the loop holes available to certain groups of people. I just did my taxes and the amount of work I had to do to figure out AMT is ridiculous (and I've been an AMT victim for years now). I would like to see 1 senator or congressman figure his/her own taxes under AMT. Or maybe they have a loop hole on that...3/09/2007 12:06:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|If 10% is good enough for Jesus, then it ought to be good enough for Uncle Sam !3/09/2007 12:09:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Btw, what did our government fixed lately? social security? medicare/medicaid? fair tax? dependence on fossil fuel? Oh right, none of the above.3/09/2007 01:01:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Everyone should make the same amount of money (and pay the same amount of taxes) no matter what they do. If we all live identical lives, there would be less violence and theft.3/09/2007 01:04:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|It's time for people to get real. The AMT was established because there were people earning a lot of money and paying no taxes. Without the AMT, the same situation would exist.

The rich get every bit as much return for their taxes as the poor.

Every year congress takes up the AMT and adjusts it for that year. The exempt amount is substantially greater than the mean income.

I'm amazed by all of the people who believe the rich earn a lot because of their hard work and the poor are all lazy.

These are the same people who get all bent out of shape whenever a minimum wage increase is mentioned.

As the rich continue to get richer and the difference between the haves and have-nots increases, I'm still waiting for Reagan's trickle-down economics to actually reach the poor. It's been more than 25 years and still the rich complain about the small amount they have to pay when compared to the large amount they get to keep.

Forget the percentages. Take a look and what you have, give thanks, and quit complaining.3/09/2007 01:13:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I 've paid the AMT for the last 3 years and honestly it is not that big of an imposition and I am not rich. The crux of the matter is that government needs to raise a certain amount of revenue to pay for its spending needs (defense, police, roads, social security etc.) Despite our gripes about government inefficiency we have not managed in our long history to vote in a more efficient government (don't blame the politicians, it's us the voters who choose them) so it's fair to say that somehow the revenue needs to be raised. Most Americans also tend to believe that since we all need to eat and stay somewhere poor Americans spend more of their income on those basic necessities and therefore that leaves them with little leftover money to pay for taxes. Therefore the richer with more leftover money have to pay more to cover the government expenses. Given these assumption the AMT looks like a decent approach to ensure that the rich do their duty towards the country. You might want to tinker with the details so it does not catch as many middle class people but in the end the money has to be raised. An easy way would be to realize that Bush's taxcuts were unaffordable for the country and roll them back. If a Republican president and Republican congress failed to cut the budget to compensate for the lower revenue it probably means it's very hard to do and unlikely to get done. So stop complaining and pay up like I do.3/09/2007 01:34:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|John in Kent is closer to being right than most of you objecting to him. This crying about gov't waste is really a red herring. The truth is that most of our taxes are used with reasonable effectiveness. Waste is a human failing. Fortune 500 companies, Gov't, small businesses, you and I all waste a reasonable percentage of our resources, and the difference is smaller than most folks would care to acknowledge. Cappucino anyone? Or maybe it's that Harley in your driveway. In any case, I hate the bridge to no-where Alaska as much as Derek, and I don't always like the way my tax dollars are spent, but the rhetoric about all gov't spending = waste is not very accurate. Also, poor people are not all lazy, and rich people are not all virtuous go-getters. A lot of hardworking people are poor, a lot of rich people just got lucky. There's a kind of holier than thou thing common to the middle class that we got where we are because we worked hard, implying all the poor people were lazy. In some cases they are, but in some cases they aren't, I don't think it's fair to imply that they all are. I've worked hard (I think 100+ hour weeks qualify)and gotten a little lucky, and I think I should pay more than someone who has fewer advantages, and benefitted less from our system of economics and gov't. At the very least, I should pay at the same RATE or slightly more per dollar. Where I disagree with John, and the only place I agree with Derek, is that the AMT is biting the wrong people... it's starting to hit the middle class, and damaging the incentives built into our tax system to build and support the middle class, such as the mortgage deduction, by dis-allowing them. The AMT needs to be structured to hit the folks making $200K to roughly $600K, to correct the fact that they pay a lower rate of taxes per dollar earned than anybody except the under $25K crowd (see David Cay Johnston, you can look it up), and the $600K and up crowd who often find tax advantages you and I can't get to take their taxes to ridiculously low rates.3/09/2007 02:01:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why not repeal the AMT and backfill the lost revenue with a tax on the biggest corperation/Political Action Commitee of them all?

Namely, organized religion.3/09/2007 02:27:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|It's time for people to get real. The AMT was established because there were people earning a lot of money and paying no taxes. Without the AMT, the same situation would exist.

The really rich people (ie the top 1-2% of earners) are not impacted by the AMT. Once your family makes about $500,000 per year, your regular tax liability is great enough so that the AMT does not apply. There was an article in Fortune I think in the last 6 months that detailed this, and that article suggested the best thing to do to avoid AMT was to make more that $500,000 (not a possiblity in my case). So if the people who don't have to work for a living are not currently impacted by the AMT, why should people making less have to pay it? Why should you lose your deduction for your children, but keep the deduction for the interest on whatever Mansion you might live in? Why should you be penalized for marrying a person with a real job who might be able to support your children if something happened to yourself?
Most of the loopholes that people were using in 1969 to avoid paying ttaxes don't exist anymore. Why should the AMT still exist to tax people who still have to work to maintain themselves instead of idle billionaires? if you can explain to me how as a working professional I can hide my income legally and pay no taxes nowadays, I would be willing to listen.3/09/2007 02:44:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|John, you definitely don't get it. $175,000 may seem like a lot to a person in Kent, Ohio, but in New York and California it does not go too far. I understand this is very difficult for people from other parts of the country to grasp, but it's a reality and it's precisely what's is wrong with the AMT. The AMT makes sense in places like Kent, Ohio -- just not in places where the cost of living is eminently higher.3/09/2007 02:47:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why should there be an ATM? Since when does it say that the successful should be willing to give more to the tax man? The only people that benefit from this hidden tax are the money grubbers that sit on capitol hill and think they know better about spending the hard earned money of others. (This is the start of Socialism) All they do is waste the funds they do receive by funding useless projects like long term unemployment, welfare payments and the like! Whatever happened to the American ethic of work hard, save money, don't live outside your means and not be a drain on society? Too many have their hand out and Washington is more that willing to be "Robin Hood"! I say do away with this stupid tax and lets get to a "Real" Tax simplification that fits the bill and doesn't strain the regular families that are not blessed with outrageous incomes. Everybody wants to pile on whats left of the "Middle Class". If you don't think this nation is in trouble, there is a big surprise coming for you!3/09/2007 02:58:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Eliminate ALL income taxes and go to a national sales tax and a consumption tax. - The more you make, the more you spend, hence the more taxes you pay, then everyone pays the same percentage of tax no matter how much they make.3/09/2007 03:03:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Bob, you're also missing the point. The AMT doesn't affect only "the rich," but the hard-working middle class as well. If you had done some background reading on the subject, you would know that every year the AMT hits more and more middle class Americans. The annual adjustments you refer to have been ineffective.3/09/2007 03:41:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Easy solution to it all: implement the Fair Tax (www.fairtax.org). This incredibly well-studied system of taxation would eliminate the AMT, eliminate the IRS and all the costs associated with tax collection, and implement a consumption tax instead of an income tax, so each individual can control his taxation amount by controlling how much he spends. This way people would no longer get punished by excessive taxation for providing value to society.3/09/2007 07:47:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I said the AMT came into being because there were "people earning a lot of money and paying no taxes." By the way, the wealthy who pay more via the regular tax system are already paying more, which means that those who have to use the AMT are paying a lower percentage than the very rich.

My wife and I earn about $45,000 (gross) a year, own our home free and clear, have no debt, save more than $1,000 per month, fund our IRAs, and contribute nearly $400 a month to my mother-in-law's upkeep. We live in a community where the median home price is nearly $400,000 and regular gasoline goes for more than $2.65 a gallon. It never got lower than $2.41 in recent months.

It isn't as expensive as some place, more expensive than others. More important is that it's possible to make it.

First, you don't have to have the most expensive home. Our free and clear home is 1,008 square feet. We're both in our early 50s and we've owned a total of six cars in our life (we still have three of them). We've never owned a new car, and in fact the newest was seven years old when we purchased it.

We've never inherited money, never earned more than $65,000 (combined),and our net worth is more than $750,000.3/10/2007 08:25:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|my husband and i built and renovated our home and turned it into a business to secure our future. we also supported my destitute mother. 8 years later my husband had a series of 3 heart attacks and needed to quit his business. after 17 years we sold to get out from under mounting fixed expenses.
we paid off our mortgage and bills, moved, and then the AMT took everything we had worked for for 20 years. the AMT took what we had worked for for 20 years. what do we do now? My husband is sick and we have a 13 year old, and a mother that depend on us. we are our of our rental end of july with no place to go
anne marie3/10/2007 09:23:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To the people who are complaining that $175k doesn't go as far in NY or CA as in OH:

Why do you think the people in OH should subsidize your federal tax obligations so that you can live in a place with high taxes and an expensive cost of living?

It is YOUR choice to live there, after all. $175k is $175k, it's up to you where you live and how you spend it.3/10/2007 10:56:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|AMT, Soc. Sec., Iraq, etc., etc. The American people only have themselves to blame. We keep electing the same crooks and liers to represent us in our local, state, and national elections. When we wake up and elect someone who realizes its a priveledge and honor to serve and not a way to get rich and screw the electorates, only then will we begin to turn this country around. The American people, Republican & Democrat do not know half of what goes on in Washington and no one could ever hope to get a clear picture from the media. Cut their salaries, take away their their entitlements, limit their terms, and hold them accountable only then can we hope for some sense from what we wee today.3/10/2007 02:09:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Everyone pays the AMT and everyone pays the regular tax. If your regular tax is $18,000 and your AMT is $20,000, you pay $20,000. If the two taxes are reversed, you still pay $20,000. One reason more people are paying the AMT is because tax cuts lowered their regular tax. This could be fixed by raising the regular tax. Is that really what you want?

I would rather see the regular tax eliminated and stick with the AMT than the other way around.3/10/2007 03:20:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Me on the Fairtax:
http://money.cnn.com/2005/09/06/pf/taxes/consumptiontax_0510/

flame on...3/10/2007 03:26:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Mike in Irvine writes:

"What kind of review process do you have that let's someone comment with complete ignorance? The article clearly stated the professor was a woman, and the commentator calls her a man and suggests he is an idiot for not knowing the difference between the legislative and executive bodies..."

The answer is that I'm pretty permissive. Misreading and misspelling is forgiven. Spam messages, wildly off-topic messages, and truly abusive posts are not.3/10/2007 03:59:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Re: Wealthy getting wealthy because of the infrastructure in place..

What about the people who get wealthy who come from areas without a formidable infrastructure in place, e.g. failing schools, limited access, horrible teachers, etc.? Should they pay for an infrastructure that they succeeded in spite of, as opposed to as a result of?3/10/2007 09:23:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Pete from Detroit,
No one is advocating that those who live in places where the cost of living is higher subsidize those who live in areas that are less expensive. The point is that someone making $175,000 in the more expensive areas, like NY, aren�t �rich� like they would be in Ohio. And, sorry, your view that �$175k is $175k� is flat out wrong. If you disagree with me, come to Manhattan and how far your Detroit salary gets you. Seriously. You have to realize that a $175,000 salary in NY probably equals about half that in places like Ohio -- but the person in Ohio who makes that that salary gets taxed at a much lower tax rate. That�s what�s unfair about our tax code and, in particular, the AMT. And there isn�t always a �choice� for professionals to make about where they live and work. I work in finance and my job only exists in New York, so moving to Ohio isn�t an option -- unfortunately. Believe me, if New Yorkers could take their salaries and move to some rural community where they could afford to buy a simple house and make the same salary, they would do it in a heartbeat.3/11/2007 12:25:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To correct a point made by John in Denver...

Mortgage Interest is still deductible for AMT purposes. As are 2nd mortgages and HELOC provided they were used for home improvement or purchase.3/11/2007 03:42:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Sean,
If they succeeded, they succeeded because of political stability, highway systems that transport goods, an Internet (communications infrastructure) that was developed by the U.S. government, a stable economy that is found no where else on the planet, etc. Even if they had lousy schools they had streets, public sewers and water systems, electricity, and other infrastructure unavailable in much of the world. If they succeeded despite some educational (or other) difficulties, that's fantastic. But they also succeeded because of an infrastructure unavailable in most of the world. They may be a "disadvantaged American", but that's still a very privileged person by world standards.3/11/2007 09:36:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Billy in NYC:

Half of $175,000 is still nearly $90,000 and $45,000 is half of that. People who can't make it work with $175,000 anywhere in America need to learn that it isn't how much you earn, but how much you spend.

Simple principal: Spend a little less than your earn, save and invest the difference, and in the long run you'll be well of.

By the way: If you're earning $175,000 a year, how much money are you saving by not having to pay Social Security taxes on the extra you earn?3/12/2007 01:34:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Oh, the plight of the middle class... If it wasn't for our SUV's and plasma tv's, I don't think we would make it!3/12/2007 12:47:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Do any of you actually pay the AMT?3/12/2007 12:56:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The problem lies with Congress, either Republican or Democratic controlled. They constantly refuse to address any major issue (Health care, SS, tax reform, etc.).
EGTRRA and the 2003 act significantly nominally lowered the marginal tax rates for nearly all US taxpayers. However by doing this it brought to prominence a previously lesser known provision of the US Internal Revenue Code, the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT). The AMT was originally designed as a way of making sure that wealthy taxpayers could not take advantage of "too many" tax incentives and reduce their tax obligation by too much. It is an alternate system of calculating a taxpayer's tax liability that removes many so called "tax preference items". However the applicable AMT rates were not adjusted in step with the lowered rates of EGTRRA and the 2003 act, causing many more people to face higher taxes because of the AMT than had originally been planned. This reduced some of the benefit of EGTRRA and the 2003 act for many middle income earners, particularly those with large deductions for state and local income taxes, dependents, and property taxes. Yes, he cut the taxes on dividends and capital gains to 15%, but failed to talk about the fact that if you are caught in the AMT, the tax is now calculated at 28%.
Since congress is so busy, why do they pass laws that will expire! One of the most notable characteristics of EGTRRA is that its provisions are designed to sunset or revert to the provisions that were in effect before it was passed. EGTRRA will sunset on January 1, 2011 unless further legislation is enacted to make its changes permanent. Why don�t they do their job! Pass a law, if it doesn�t work repeal it! But do not pass a law so that it expires within a decade so they can re-address the issue again. I pay way too much in taxes to a legislative body that is afraid to make a decision!3/12/2007 01:48:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|John, try to moving to the Northern VA suburbs of DC, where your mortgage/principle and taxes can run over $4k a month! Then tell me that $175k a year is SOOO much money! And by the way, we don't pay JUST federal taxes - we pay, state, maybe local, sales, personal property, real estate, and whole host of other taxes...wisen up, buddy! My husband and I made about $190k last year, and after paying our mortgage and other living costs, and then taxes, ended up with very little to show for it!

What the AMT does, in my opinion, is erodes the "equality" of common folks in this country. You can have a DINK (dual-income, no kids) couple that made $190k and have them not qualify for the AMT, but throw a couple kids into the mix, and they're screwed! BAM! They have to pay the AMT! Why should they have to pay higher taxes? because they make more? Because they have kids and a mortgage? What kind of equality is that??3/12/2007 01:48:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The government needs money to run, whether it comes via regular income tax or the AMT. But why does it need to be so darn complicated? My complaint is that taxes are so darn complicated that I can no longer do it myself and have to pay hundreds of dollars for a tax man.

Every time our government make things more complicated, it is another anchor dragging on our economy.3/12/2007 01:49:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|My husband and I are in our mid/late 40s and ive in New Jersey. Combined, we make right around $200,000 per year, and pay the highest property tax rate in the nation -- we pay almost $18,000 annually, whereas for a comparably sized home with more land in our previous, much less expensive state, we paid $2,600. We've been hit with the AMT each year that we've lived in New Jersey, and never paid it in our previous state. Though we have diligently tried to adjust our withholding accordingly, we pay penalties each year in addition to the AMT. We have no debt other than our mortgage and our net worth excluding home equity is about $1.7 million. It seems as though the AMT targets people who live in high property tax states and earn in the low-ish six figures. Though we have a high net worth, I can tell you that living in the metro NYC area, we certainly don't feel at all "rich." More often than not, when tax time rolls around, we find ourselves feeling punished for being successful.3/12/2007 03:52:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|"Do any of you actually pay the AMT?"
if you had read the previous posts, you would know that many of us posting DO pay AMT. I have been paying AMT every year since the buch "tax cuts" became effective.3/12/2007 04:41:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|What this whole discussion confirms is America is a nation of whiners!3/12/2007 06:43:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Lisa,
You don't feel rich! With your $1.7M in net worth, you both could quit your jobs and live off interest income for the rest of your life in most areas of the country. I think most people call that rich.3/12/2007 08:45:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Bob from Bend, Oregon,

Even the most frugile person making $175,000 in New York City would find it difficult to get ahead. Keep in mind that, in addition to having to pay $3,000 in montly rent for your average one bedroom apartment, most of the professionals in New York have student loans that dwarf the size of the average American's Mortgage. So simply "spending a little less" of your salary isn't gettig you a modest piece of real estate over here. You cannot have any appreciation for how expensive it is to live here unless you live here. $175,000 will always seems like a lot more money to those who don't make it and don't live in NYC. It's a nice salary and I'm grateful, but having to pay back 40% of it to the government is ridiculous for someone who has zero networth, $100,000 + in student loans, and can only afford to rent a one bedroom apartment.

As for the money we're apparently saving by not paying a social security tax, you fail to consider that we won't be getting any greater retirement benefits than those who make $90,000 a year.3/13/2007 09:13:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I live in NYC. Two teachers married to one another earn more than $175,000 per year. Homes cost more than $500,000 -- and that's a cheap home. We pay federal, state and local taxes. We pay higher insurance premiums -- health, liability, car, etc. We pay upwards of $200 per month -- each-- to commute. $175,000 per year may be alot of money if you live in Podunk, but it's a middle-class income here.

The AMT affects people earning between $100,000 and $500,000 per year -- that's total family income, not individual income. As such, it affects the professional middle-class (teachers, accountants, lawyers, doctors, I.T. people, skilled construction workers such as electricians & plumbers) in LA, NYC, D.C. and other high-tax, high inflation areas. It phases out at very high incomes, meaning that it does exactly the opposite of what it was intended to do, which was to tax the rich who were not paying their fair share of income taxes. Not surprisingly, high tax, high inflation cities are -- Democratic. Not for nothing will Bush and his Republican buddies take my family's income while letting their corporate stock option buddies off the hook.

I want also to tell the person who claimed that earning $175,000 a year meant that you were "rich" that, between federal, state and local taxes, plus the property taxes that we can't deduct because we are in the AMT, my family pays FIFTY PERCENT of our income in taxes. That's before utilities ($700 per month to heat a 2,750 sq. ft. house), health insurance ($11,000 per year), college tuition (don't ask), etc. We are not rich. We are subsidizing the person who wrote that comment. I'm totally fed up with this situtation and have suggested to my husband that we sell our home, move to a lower-tax, lower inflation area, lower cost area and let the poor idiots like us, who are trying to survive in a metropolitan area while paying the AMT, support us for a change. I'd like the person who wrote that comment to pay my bills for a month and then tell me how rich I am.3/13/2007 09:24:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Chris from Tampa should go to the the CNN cost-of-living calculater and see how much little he'd have to earn in Tampa to approximate the $200,000 per year earned by the couple in New Jersey. And that woman should liquidate her $1.7M and move someplace else? Leave her home, family and job to migrate to a low-cost area? My husband and I could liquidate, too, at age 57 and 56, respectively, and have, not as much in assets as the NJ couple, but apparently more than enough to impress Chris in Tampa. Wouldn't it be nice, however, if instead of requiring me to turn into a migrant worker in my middle-age, the government instead recognized that expenses are higher in my hometown thanin Tampa and, instead of giving me the choice between bleeding to death and leaving the only home I've ever known to move to one of Chris' low cost paradises, allowed me to pay taxes proportionate to those paid by Chris and his buddies in Florida. I'm subsidizing you, Chris, and so is that family in New Jersey. It's you who are the freeloader.3/13/2007 04:52:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|$175,000 a year just isn't that much money these days... that's just reality.

I can understand if someone lives in an area where the cost of living is much lower, and they look at this post and think "what are these people complaining about- they're rich!"

My wife and I have a modest 1500 sq. foot house (built in 1957) in a so-so neighborhood. It cost us $340,000. We live a pretty conservative life and spend responsibly (we couldn't care less what the Jones' are doing, and have no credit-card debt). Even with that being the case, it costs us about $6500 a month just to live a fairly low-key lifestyle. This is just reality. I suppose we could move to Montana... but are you going to leave your friends, family, and career behind to go live in the middle of nowhere?

And by the way, if we all did decide to move to Ohio to save money, all it would do is drive up the cost of living in Ohio (our presence would create supply scarcity).

We are very close to having to pay the AMT. We are not rich. True, instead of living paycheck-to-paycheck, we may be living every other paycheck-to-paycheck, but the Rockefellers we ain't!3/13/2007 05:06:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Congress and the President knew exactly what they were doing. Attributing to them a lack of economics understanding is incorrect. They understood the consequences then and now. The AMT is doing exactly what it was designed to do.3/13/2007 05:18:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Isn't it true that the states on the coasts are taxed to subsidize the farm states? We send a lot of our federal taxes to the center of the country in the form of agribusiness farm subsidies and corporate welfare. Cut those, and we'd be a bit closer to a balanced budget. We cannot because those low population "independent" states have disproportionate clout in the Senate.3/13/2007 07:17:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Pete - The idea that those of us in New York and other places hit hardest by the AMT are asking you in Kent, Ohio to subsidize us is completely missing the point - in fact, because more of us get hit here with the AMT, we are in effect subsidizing the rest of the country. That's what this whole thing is about. And I frankly don't think that's fair. I already pay extra for the fact that I live in an urban center - with high city and state taxes. Oh, and yes, I have to pay the AMT - and no, I am absolutely not wealthy. In fact, my husband and I are likely going to have to move somewhere else because we can't possibly afford to buy a home here.3/14/2007 05:34:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The unfortunate reality is that the great mass of Americana does not have a clue what competent fiscal and tax policy should look like, and elect politicians who are just as clueless or owned by PACs. Until the day that the social security system is privatized and people can opt out of the public system, and a responsible flat tax system is implemented the nonsense will continue and the populace will suffer3/15/2007 09:21:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Move to northeast Ohio...somewhere like Kent...where the living is easy, most school systems are terrific, the commute is short, home prices are inexpensive, and the salaries are pretty good! I liked living and working in New York City, but this is a better place to build wealth and spend time with family, whether you pay the AMT or not.

I remember sitting at the dinner table listening to my father chortle when the Kennedys and their allies in Congress lowered the top income tax rate from 90% to 70% in the early 60s. "They've tripled their net family income," he exclaimed. Then the top rate went down to 50% and kept going lower. Given the history of income tax rates from the 40s until now, 28% doesn't seem at all oppressive, even after removing many of the deductions. It's the Forbes flat tax!

I did live and work in New York City. If you are struggling at $175K, I don't think changing the tax system would help your situation. I say that because so many New Yorkers make much less and have fulfilling, joyous lives.3/17/2007 03:26:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|why not lower overall taxes
then issue bonds for whatever(iraq war,illegal immigrant healthcare,public schools,etc)
so that supporters of that activity can pay for it
you like the war you pay for it
you want to take care of the poor and sick you pay
better schools you pay
then no one pays for stuff that they dont want to
(like school vouchers or faith based charities)
a budget decided by revenue , not by assumptions will be true democracy because programs will only survive with real financial support,not political pressure3/19/2007 05:24:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This is not my idea of AMT reform.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/14/pf/taxes/amt_capgains/index.htm?postversion=2007031414
First of all because of the loss of the AMT exemption many people like myself are already paying 22% effective tax on capital gains.
These proposals preserve the appearance of the Bush tax cuts while making the AMT even more complicated to figure. If you owe AMT you ought at least not to have to pay a penalty for underpaid taxes because it is very hard to figure out how much you have to pay with all these complicated rules and it looks like if Congress passes one of these proposals, it is going to get worst.3/07/2007 05:27:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|A House Ways and Means subcommittee held hearings on the fixing the alternative minimum tax this afternoon. My colleague Jeanne Sahadi wrote a clear and concise guide to the options lawmakers have in dealing with the AMT mess, which you can read here. Check out this chart, which is based on data from the Joint Committee on Taxation. The blue line is how many people will be snagged by the AMT under current law. The red line is how many people will have to pay it if the 2001 rate reductions are renewed. (They are set to "sunset" in 2011.) Extending the tax cuts will dramatically increase the number of people who will have to deal with two separate tax systems, even as fewer and fewer people enjoy the benefits of the cuts. That's because without those tax cuts, more people would have a high enough tax under the regular system that they wouldn't be moved into the AMT. One thing to be clear about: This chart does not mean that the Bush tax cuts will actually raise the taxes of those who end up on the AMT. As Alan Viard of the American Enterprise Institute explains in his Ways and Means testimony today:
Suppose that, without [the recent tax laws], a hypothetical taxpayer would have a $100 tax liability under regular tax rules and a $90 tax liability under AMT rules. The taxpayer would then be on the regular income tax and would have a $100 tax liability. Suppose that those laws reduce the taxpayer’s liability under regular tax rules to $85 while leaving his or her liability under AMT rules unchanged at $90. Because liability under the AMT rules is now higher than the liability under the regular tax rules, the taxpayer moves onto the AMT and has a $90 tax liability.

Although these laws cause the taxpayer to move onto the AMT, they do not raise his or her tax liability, relative to prior law. On the contrary, the laws reduce the taxpayer’s liability from $100 to $90. Moving onto the AMT merely reduces the size of the tax cut, which would have been $15 without the AMT, to $10. In colloquial terms, the AMT “takes back” one-third of this taxpayer’s tax cut.

Even so, the AMT clearly erodes the constituency for extending the tax cuts. Not to mention driving people crazy. Update 3/8: Want to pin the AMT mess on the Republicans? Or maybe on the Democrats? Check out my post, "Alternative minimum blame."|W|P|117330648054569067|W|P|How the AMT might doom Bush's tax cuts|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/07/2007 11:30:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Because I live in a high property tax area and have 5 children I get killed with the amt.3/07/2007 11:39:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|One more thing, the amt doesn't allow
my 7 exemptions which is woth about 24,000 so 26% of that is about $6,000
which could be put towards their
education.3/08/2007 01:21:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I just got married this year and it looks like together we will make just over 100k. Is there any chance of an 11th hour fix to raise the phase in of the AMT for this 2006 filing year?

What was congress thinking by not indexing the AMT? I live in a very expensive part of the country with high taxes already and I have to get hit with yet another tax too!

Why is this not causing riots in the street yet?3/08/2007 01:57:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Are we back to Reagan's trickle down economics...

Valerie
UsVisionaries.com3/08/2007 08:54:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|While the American Express person's testimony is factual, it ignores the critical component of tax policy: fairness.

I am in the same boat as Allison. My marginal tax rate under AMT is 35% due to phase out of exemptions. A VERY wealthy, VERY high income individual with largely income from dividends and capital gains will still pay at a marginal rate of 15%. Even if the very high income is wage based, it will be taxed at a maximum marginal rate of 28%.

So...the Bush tax cuts did provide much higher benefits to the very high paid, and further favor investment income over earned income. Remind me why I voted for this guy?3/08/2007 10:01:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I'm hearing that some economists are reccomending ending the AMT and raising tax rates for everyone to keep it revenue neutral. That means to me, a single, childless person making $50,000 per year, would get to pay higher taxes in order to let families with large amounts of chidren keep their overly generous tax cuts. The fact is that families with several children pay very little in taxes comared to singles. The AMT simply washes out some of the tax cuts. I say, keep the AMT or get rid of all the tax breaks families with kids get. I should not have to subsidize families.3/08/2007 10:17:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|It is true that dividends are taxed at the 15 percent capital gains rate, but that is after they have already been taxed as corporate income, so that income is being taxed twice. The tax cuts didn't provide any "benefits" to anyone. It just let them keep their own money.3/08/2007 10:33:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The Bush tax cuts are a fraud. I never saved a penny in taxes because I've been paying AMT for years. Millionaires who make all their income from capital gains don't have to pay it, but the working class does. It's a transfer of taxes from the rich to the middle class.3/08/2007 10:51:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The serious issues facing this country will not be resolved until the people who vote realize that they are the problem and not the solution. A consumption tax system needs to be implemented.3/08/2007 11:01:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The AMT is completely unjust and its continued presence in our country's tax code seriously calls into question the competency of our Congressional leaders. Its primary failure is its inability to account for substantial differences in the cost of living across this country. For example, I live in a two bedroom "apartment" in New York, have over $100,000 in student loans, a negative net worth, and a child and a wife to support, but because I make $200,000 in compensation (which is not much in New York) the AMT strips me of most deductions. My tax bill is ridiculous and completely hinders my ability to make much financial progress.

Other aspects of our federal tax code that disallow for certain deductions when certain income thresholds have been surpassed (e.g., dependents, student loan interest, etc.) are also unfair, but the AMT is by far the most egregious.3/08/2007 11:06:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Frank, why would earned income be taxed at only 28% for high income households???

And income from dividends or capital gains has essentially been taxed twice: once when it was earned, and subsequently invested, and again when gains are realized or dividends paid.3/08/2007 11:07:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|And all of you who voted for him twice did so WHY?? Any middle class citizen like myself has suffered through this administration, and as Shawn has stated, "Why isn't this causing riots in the streets?" Because the simple mention of 'tax cuts' had everyone flocking to the polls like shhe to the slaughter.3/08/2007 11:16:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This is one of the biggest frauds in the tax code, gets so much press, and nothing gets done. The middle class continues to get squeezed, while the rich have their tax burdens reduced. It's part and parcel of the Bush presidency, smoke and mirrors. Widen the gap between rich and the rest. We have only to look at third world countries, and our own late 19th century history, to see what happens when an elite class of people continue to get extraordinarily rich at everyone else's expense. It is most preposterous when this is done thru the tax code. Come on Congress, WAKE UP AND VOID THIS TAX...3/08/2007 11:41:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The fiscal reality in this country is that the bulk of tax revenue comes not from the uber-rich or the working poor,it comes from the enormous numbers of upper middle class, wage earning , professional families primarily located in high population, high tax states on both coasts. The only equitable way of reforming the tax system is to have a value-added type consumption tax with an exemption for lower incomes so as not to make it a regressive burden. It can be overall revenue neutral and perhaps even have the added benefit of increasing personal savings and investment.3/08/2007 12:04:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|It's clear why Bush loves the AMT. It increases taxes for the middle class but has been designed to avoid taxing the rich. Remember, the rich mostly make capital gains and dividends, and THE AMT DOES NOT APPLY TO THAT. So the Bush tax plan is:

Rich: 15% tax rate + small amount state and local
Middle class: 28% AMT tax rate, + 15.3% total net social security tax (much of which is used for general expenditures) + a higher state and local rate piggybacked on the higher federal rate.

If you are worth less than 5 million dollars and you voted for Bush, you are a chump.3/08/2007 12:16:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The last line of my previous post should have read "Because the simple mention of 'tax cuts' had everyone flocking to the polls like sheep to the slaughter." And, on top of all this. gas is headed towards $3 a gallon, plus all of us in Southern Illinois are getting hosed by Ameren for an electric rate increase that has doubled most of our utility bills... This 'deregulation' wet dream of Reagan's that was supposed to have led to 'competition' has only led to companies buying one another, thus eliminating competition, making share holders more wealthy and creating monopolies.3/08/2007 12:21:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|We too have five children, from 14 through 22. I work a full time and part time job and my wife works 30-35 hours a week. Our college age children work part time as well. The income is needed to pay for education, but also pushes us into the AMT. This creates the absurd situation where we need to earn more to overcome the additional AMT tax burden. Of course, by earning more, we are taxed more.3/08/2007 12:22:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This is the United States of America, where Capitalism reigns supreme, not some socialistic state. The fact that our tax code favors Investment income over Earned income should suprise no one. Save and purchase real assets (things that produce income), and one will reap the benefits so rightly afforded us by our great, Capitalistic country!3/08/2007 12:22:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Excuse me but I'm thinking that BUSH doesn't write the tax code. Blame everything on Bush. It's the system Stupid. A National Sales tax is the solution. Everyone pays by consuming goods and services. Rich consume more that poor so they pay more tax. DUH3/08/2007 12:27:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The changes proposed to the AMT are simply part of the new economic caste system in the USA. Unlike previous class systems in this country, this one is based on the notion that income transfers are somehow evil, and that it will be up to the individual income classes to fund benefits within the income class, or members of each income class can "opt out" and pay for their own benefits. Meaning that the poor will be taxed to pay for their education, health and welfare benefits; the middle gets taxed for their portion, etc.. The very rich can, if they want to, opt out of the system and pay for their own education, health and other benefits. If you want examples take a close look at the Bush Social Security proposal, Roth conversion changes in last year's Pension Act, and the latest proposal on health insurance. Each of these plans allow the rich to opt out. And, of course, it is very easy for them to do so, (they're rich) but since the rationale of the Bush Administration is that if the rich get no benefit they shouldn't have to pay anything for anyone else's benefits the income transfers built into the tax code since WWII are simply vanishing. But, paradoxically, the burden for national defense should be imposed on all citizens...but don't the rich have much more to protect?3/08/2007 12:29:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I'm a CPA, and to put the future effects of the AMT in perspective, here's a nice little stat:

If the AMT is not adjusted, 60% of families who own a house and have 2 children will pay AMT by 2010.

For those who wonder why AMT has never been adjusted, the answer is simple. Politicians, both Republican and Democrat, are addicted to the money it generates. The 10-year cost to eliminate the AMT, if enacted today, would be over $2 trillion dollars. The only way to bridge that gap is to raise taxes or cut spending, neither of which is all that popular with voters. So, AMT stays in place, unindexed.

Fixing AMT is a lot like fixing Social Security. Everyone knows there is a very expensive problem looming, but the solutions are hard and unpopular. In the end, nothing gets done except some hearings that will make for good press but little substance.3/08/2007 12:31:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The Democrats control and House and the Senate. What is all this anti Bush BS. If the AMT is not removed, look to the people that run Congress. My eight year old undertands the functions of government better then half the people who posted to this article. By the way, my tax refund has increased by $5,000 since the child tax credits were pushed by President Bush. The middle class with children makes out much better under republican control. Clinton tries so hard for a middle class tax decrease but just could not do it. YA he tried real hard.3/08/2007 12:33:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Elias, I agree we must void the AMT. However, I fear the rantings of certain political candidates and members of Congress are perpetuating the myth that the gap is growing between the rich and the rest and that the Bush tax cuts further widen this gap. The Feb. 6 Wall Street Journal article by Reynolds and Henderson debunks this myth and sources (eg. CBO data)used to perpetuate it. Quoting a study done by the IRS Statistics of Income Division as well as one done by a Federal Reserve Board economist, the authors show that that percentage of income held by the top 1% remained the same or declined slightly from 1995 to the early 2000's. To equate our country with its opportunities to move between classes to circumstances in third world countries is misguided, at best.3/08/2007 12:52:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This is for Terry in Illinois,

Hopefully you are thankful that when you are 70 collecting Social Security that souls like myself sacrificed and had children (who end up working and paying taxes) to support you in your old age. What goes around comes around. By my supporting/raising 3 children and sending them to college to get good jobs in order to pay taxes, I am actually supporting you.3/08/2007 01:40:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why aren't the recommendations of Bush's own 2005 tax reform commission being used as the basis of AMT reform?

It recommended several much needed "fixes" to the U.S. taxation system, including simplification, elimination of the marriage penalty and AMT. Yes, the cost of paying for it was the elimination of some sacred cows: deductions for state/local taxes, restrictions on mortgage interest deductions, etc. However, the overall payoff would have been a much simpler, more efficient system than anything the Republicans or Democrats have yet proposed. It should be mandatory reading for every Congressperson.3/08/2007 01:42:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I enjoy the guys comments who has his head stuck in the black and white cloud,� Save and purchase real assets"

Well genius capitalism doesn�t work that way, in order for capitalism to work their must be a larger amount of people paying money for you assets or working at low wages so your asset remains an asset. DUH !Reciprocity is not in the capitalist vocabulary.

Capitalism is a game of musical chairs and we all know how it�s played and there�s only one winner, but the game needs all the other losers in order to be played.

Capitalism requires exploitation of something in order to work, third world countries, nature, workers, and taxes are all exploited for the benefit of the few. Lets not try to deny this basic need of capitalism.3/08/2007 01:45:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Elain in Stafford, VA:

The current tax system absolutely pillages the earnings of young upper-middle class couples without children in three ways.

1. The mortgage interest tax deduction has contributed to the gross inflation of residential realestate values, making it almost impossible for first-time homebuyers w/o family contribution to purchase without exorbanent amounts of debt.

2. Many deductions, such as student loan interest, quickly disappear as your income rises.

3. The marriage penalty quickly kicks in with two professional incomes.

Consequently, my wife and I cannot afford to have children. We have two mortgages and student loans to pay. The marriage penalty is actually hitting us so bad we've talked about getting divorced in order to reduce our tax burden, sucking away money that could be used to reduce debt.

The money being consumed to give your tax benefits and inflated home value is preventing the next generation of professionals from being born.3/08/2007 02:43:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|For Michael in Seattle:

You are correct: "Reciprocity" is not in a Capitalist's vocabulary, and thus it cannot be a game of musical chairs as you suggested it to be.

Capitalism is about the creation of assets vice simply moving assets around like musical chairs as you suggest, such as a business, that can obtain other assets and investments, and so on.

Yes, it is the Capitalists that create the jobs most people clutch to.

Which would you rather be, an owner or an employee?

I choose "owner."

p.s. Thank you for suggesting that I am a genius. However, I am merely financially literate, and choose to apply (and share) what I have learned.3/08/2007 08:18:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Erik in Baltimore. You don't have to feel special that you are being selectively pillaged as a young professional couple to be pillaged by the AMT. My Husband and I are an "old" professional couple and we are being pillaged by the AMT while trying to support our 2 children and send one of them to college. Even though we are supporting the next generation of replacement tax payers we get no tax benefits for doing so. Values that the AMT encourages are that it is more important to have a big mortgage (the interest of which is deductible under AMT) rather than the cost of nurturing children which is not allowed under AMT. This is banal.
My capital gains are taxed at 22% rather than 15% because above a certain level, for every $4 in income (whether from wages or capital gains) you lose a $1 in you AMT deduction. This results in a another 7% tax on capital gains.
Ever since the Bush tax "cuts" I have had to have substantially more money manually taken out of my check for federal taxes, because withholding as my company figures it without the AMT is pathetic. The only reason that the Bush tax "cuts" have not resulted in a huge increase in the federal deficit is because a lot of the taxes are made up by people paying the AMT. The tax cuts are nothing but smoke and mirrors. The AMT is unfair and makes is hard to calculate your tax liabilies throughout the year.
it would be fairer to either eliminate the AMT and end the Bush tax cuts, or go to a flat tax (just like the AMT), and make EVERYONE pay it.
I have suggested the same thing to my husband as another person mentioned: for tax purposes it would be much cheaper to get quietly divorced and just continue to live together. Maybe get remarried if AMT is ever ended before one of us dies. The Husband being a Catholic didn't go for it.3/09/2007 11:13:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|While many posters complain about the inherent unfairness of the AMT and the way it affects folks living in high tax states, I am unaware of any laws resricting the freedom of movement in the US.

If the income tax laws of your state are so terrible, and they also force you into paying the AMT, why not move to a lower tax state? States like Washington and Texas have no income tax, and their residents are much less likely to be hit by the AMT.

I can speak from personal experience that some years my wife and I do make over $175,000 a year, and we have no children, but we have never been subject to the AMT. And we sure as heck have never paid state income tax.

I often think of the US as being made up of 50 separate countries. If you really don't like the one you live in, vote with your feet.3/12/2007 12:13:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|"If the income tax laws of your state are so terrible, and they also force you into paying the AMT, why not move to a lower tax state? States like Washington and Texas have no income tax, and their residents are much less likely to be hit by the AMT."
It's not so easy to move and find another job that pays as much as the one you have now. Some of us still have pensions that might be imperiled by a new job.
Those of us with children to support often have difficulty moving away from the support systems that allow us to cope with with raising our children and having a full time job.
Lastly not all of us have jobs that even exist in some of the low tax states. There are not a lot of excess jobs floating around to jsut grap. One often has to find a job and move where that job happens to be.3/13/2007 01:22:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|To Erik, if your wife had a child and left the workforce your income would fall and you would gain deductions and you would not have AMT. I think that is a better solution than divorcing. Or move to a lower tax state or buy a house with cheaper property taxes or pay off your student loans. Saying you earn to much to afford kids is pretty funny.3/13/2007 02:33:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|"To Erik, if your wife had a child and left the workforce your income would fall and you would gain deductions and you would not have AMT. I think that is a better solution than divorcing. Or move to a lower tax state or buy a house with cheaper property taxes or pay off your student loans. Saying you earn to much to afford kids is pretty funny."
It's not funny. I am myself familar with Eric's situation. They would still have more money left after taxes if they merely divorce, live together and have a child. You don't have to advertize that you are getting divorced. You just need a certificate to show the IRS. This is the part that is banal. The AMT discourages marriage, and the nurturing of children by it's structure. By gaining another dependant, the AMT might kick in anyway. The deductions for you mortgage insurance are allowed on AMT no matter what your income is which your children are not. Maybe it would be "safer" to jsut buy a bigger house with a bigger mortage.
My husband and I have calculated our taxes as if each of us were single using Turbotax. The AMT in that case didn't kick in, and we both owed a lot less money in taxes.
Eric can just tell his wife that she should quit working so that they can have a child. That might merely imperil his wifes's future ability to earn a living in order to save on taxes in the short term. That is not smart for the long haul for her.3/13/2007 02:43:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|When Bush pushed the tax cuts for the rich (Cap gains, dividends, etc.), he was quite honest that he "would make up the revenue" with the AMT. The AMT falls on middle income taxpayers in blue states with high property and state income taxes. So while the Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby types get a tax windfall, we get screwed. Look at who the Bush tax cuts have benefitted. The "trickle down" approach was discredited decades ago. Hopefully, the Democrats will take some action to assist the middle class.3/13/2007 08:33:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The AMT is truly a bipartisan achievement in revenue collection. Anyone expecting anything but a temporary patch is delusional.3/15/2007 09:26:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|taxes must be paid. By everyone

10% income tax
(first $20'000 exempt)
10% capital gains
10% sales tax
(food and medical exempt)

nice and simple
any hope?3/19/2007 10:08:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This is not my idea of AMT reform.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/14/pf/taxes/amt_capgains/index.htm?postversion=2007031414
First of all because of the loss of the AMT exemption many people like myself are already paying 22% effective tax on capital gains.
These proposals preserve the appearance of the Bush tax cuts while making the AMT even more complicated to figure. If you owe AMT you ought at least not to have to pay a penalty for underpaid taxes because it is very hard to figure out how much you have to pay with all these complicated rules and it looks like if Congress passes one of these proposals, it is going to get worst.3/26/2007 11:29:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Consider the married person who has been frugal all their life, and has perhaps $400K in CDs and IRAs. The spouse dies. The person reaches 70+ and is required to take distribution from the IRAs. AMT kicks in (on top of the Medicare $3K doughnut hole) and s/he drops to the bottom of the middle class in terms of assets. Thanks a lot.3/27/2007 01:18:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|AMT has a hidden cost - tax preparation fees. I paid over $600 for tax preparation this year, whereas I used to be able to prepare my own taxes until I hit the AMT.3/06/2007 04:19:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|We journalists love giving names to generations.* It's a bad habit, but hard to resist once you get started. Just yesterday, I pronounced my children members of Generation Won't-Use-The-Potty. I think I've identified a powerful demographic trend among the 2-and-under set--I could give you more than three examples--but I'm hoping it's not a durable one. The international edition of Newsweek has a story on "The Lost Youth of Europe." (Hat tip to the highly useful Informed Reader.) According to the article, the kids of baby boomers are locked out of good jobs and can't afford decent homes. We also learn that Europeans, too, have a flair for demographic shorthand. In France, 20- and 30-somethings are known as "Génération Précaire," or the Precarious Generation. In the UK, they're the Boomerang Generation, Maggie's Children (that's as in Thatcher), and (ugh) IPODs--insecure, pressured, over-taxed and debt-ridden. In Germany, it's Generation Intern, because so many young folks can't snag permanent gigs. Anything we can learn from this? You could use it as an argument against expanding the social safety net here--the Newsweek story says that "the same labor rules that protect the jobs of the middle-aged shut out the young [and] dwindling birthrates mean there will soon be fewer workers to support the retirees." But the U.S. is a long way from looking like France, and we'd still have one of the most flexible economies in the developed world if we adopted universal health care and, say, wage insurance. The European experience does show that there's a downside to booming housing markets. (I mean besides the occasional crashes.) Says Newsweek:
Across the continent, spiraling property prices and poor job prospects are conspiring to keep youngsters living at home. According to the Italian Institute of Social Medicine, 45 percent of the country's 30- to 34-year-olds still sleep in their old beds and enjoy Mama's home cooking. In France, the proportion of 24-year-olds now living with their parents has almost doubled since 1975, to 65 percent. Even in the U.K., with its enviable record of job creation, the average age of the first-time home buyer has climbed from 26 in 1976 to 34 today. Property prices are now eight times higher than the median earnings of the ordinary twentysomething.
I lived in the U.K. for a couple of years, and even to an expatriate New Yorker the real estate market seemed insane. (Back in the five boroughs, we have not yet felt the need to come up with a slang term equivalent to the British "gazump"--meaning to accept a bid on your house and then renege upon receiving a better offer. As in, "I thought I had that flat in Rising Damp Mews, but I was gazumped.") So I was interested to read the work of economist Andrew Oswald of the University of Warwick, who contends that encouraging more and more home-ownership can be counterproductive. Oswald writes:
High home-ownership levels block young workers' ability to enter an area to find a job: if we look at countries like Spain, with its 80% home ownership rate, a key part of the problem is young jobless people living at home, unable to move out because the rental sector hardly exists any more. Here the difficulty is not that unemployed people are home owners; it is that unemployed men and women cannot move to the appropriate areas. Inefficiencies caused by high home-ownership rates impair the creation of jobs in more subtle ways. In an economy in which people are immobile, workers do jobs for which they are not ideally suited.... The resulting inefficiency is harmful: it raises the costs of production and lowers real incomes.
On the other hand, of course, home-ownership has given middle-class people a chance to build a nest-egg over time, and probably encourages more stable communities. But it's always possible to have too much of a good thing--whether you're talking about the European Dream of job security and income stability or the American Dream of owning a home. *Note: Obviously, this isn't the post on the Medicare funding gap I foolishly promised in my last post. That's still in the works.|W|P|117322744185743167|W|P|Generation Risk, meet Generation Chain-Smoking Ennui|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/07/2007 10:07:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|This isn't only a problem in Europe. I'm 34 and I, my fiance', and many of my friends are in the same boat. We have Bachelor's degrees at a minimum, and most have Master's degrees and PhD's; so we're not talking about undereducated people. Most of us are working way-below capability, in jobs that have no real upward potential. And while Michigan has cheap homes because - well, the economy is horrible here and everyone's moving out - we look at places we can move to have a shot, and the home prices make it unlikely we can afford anything any time soon. Again, we're already in our late-20's and early 30's. I try to remain optimistic, and I believe we'll all figure out something in the long run (self-employment seems the only route), but the situation is not pretty for our generation.3/13/2007 02:48:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I lived in Germany for 3.5 years, and in Italy now for about 1. The main point is correct in terms of the cost of "social safety net" is a contributing factor, but there are many other factors being overlooked. First, the percentage of the total European population, especially young adults, posessing a college degree or higher is much less than in the U.S. Secondly, with the expansion of the EU, many of the common place jobs are now being outsourced to eastern European bloc countries since labor costs are considerably less. Third, there is a cultural aspect, especially in Italy, that makes a child staying at home highly social acceptable (where in the U.S. I think young adults are more encouraged to leave home). Finally, there is the aspect of what sectors of job there exist. For example in Italy, the richest area is the north, with a lot of concentration on the textiles. Most of these companies, and companies in general, are family-owned, or very small in size. The competition form global markets, especially China, is having an incredible impact on the Italian economy, and these small businesses, which unlike in the states, do not consolidate for a larger market share and competitiveness. The half-decade old single currency implementation of the Euro also hit all European countries hard. Since the adapation of a single currency within all different states/economies, individual countries are now having a difficult time control fiscal policy to combat inflation and recession. Since each country has its own unique situations, to adjust interest rates to combat inflation in Germany, may cause a recession in Italy, or vice versa.
In conclusion, even though there is a heavy cost in terms of taxes to support their social policies of retirement of an over-populace pension population, universal healthcare, and support very inflexible labor laws/protection, the various cultural, social, education, and avaliable labor markets are all major contributing factors to account for the difference between the American and European current differences.3/15/2007 09:41:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|One of two things can happen. The Geezers will finally die off and release all their hoarded capital back into the stream, or, anti aging drugs will change all the geezers, Boomers and 30 something GenXers back into 20 year olds. At that point we'll be so happy going buck wild that buying a split level won't be so important any more. We'll all live in those MTV loft apartments for $100 a room.3/04/2007 09:58:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|Depends what you mean by "debt." 60 Minutes ran a Steve Kroft report last night about David Walker, the comptroller general of the United States. Basically, he's our accountant. Walker has been traveling the country warning that we're headed for a fiscal meltdown. In response, economist Dean Baker, blogging for the liberal journal American Prospect, unleashes his fists of fury:
60 Minutes declared war tonight on Social Security and Medicare.... [I]f they wanted to be accurate, the 60 Minutes crew could have pointed out that almost the whole horror story is driven by projections of exploding health care costs, not "entitlements" for the elderly (e.g. Social Security). As is clear to anyone who is moderately competent at arithmetic, the projected budget problems are due to a projected explosion in health care costs, not demographics. If U.S. health care costs were more in line with those in any other wealthy country, there wouldn't be much of a budget crisis to talk about.
I missed the show tonight, but if the web version of the story is any reflection of what viewers saw, the 60 Minutes crew actually does say that health care is the 800 lbs. gorilla here:
Part of the problem, Walker acknowledges, is that there won't be enough wage earners to support the benefits of the baby boomers. "But the real problem, Steve, is health care costs. Our health care problem is much more significant than Social Security," he says. Asked what he means by that, Walker tells Kroft, "By that I mean that the Medicare problem is five times greater than the Social Security problem." The problem with Medicare, Walker says, is people keep living longer, and medical costs keep rising at twice the rate of inflation....
So Baker and Walker agree, I think, that the way we pay for health care is basically ridiculous and that we can't afford to sustain our current spending patterns. The question is, what do we call this problem? Is this a fiscal crisis? Or a health care crisis? This sounds like an abstruse philosophical debate, but it has enormous political and practical implications. If you add the projected cost of future Medicare benefits to the basic federal debt and other obligations, you get some mind-bogglingly big numbers--in the neighborhood of $50 trillion. (See the slide from one of Walker's talks at left.) That's one way to ring the alarm bell, I suppose. Maybe all this bankruptcy talk will eventually get voters and policymakers focused on fixing the health care system, so that those projections don't come true. But talking about this primarily as an accounting problem--too much going out, not enough coming in--can confuse as much as it clarifies. The government could, in theory, solve most of its balance sheet woes by simply phasing out the Medicare program. But this country would still have a health-care financing mess. That's Baker's point. So should we just call it a health care crisis? More on that in my next a coming post....|W|P|117307133957728879|W|P|Just how big is the federal debt?|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/13/2007 07:45:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The Social Security Trust Fund is full of IOUs backed by the US Treasury. If the federal government pays back that money with a fair interest rate Social Security will not be broke in a few years.3/02/2007 04:41:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P|I hesitate to open this particular can of worms, but there was a debate over the "FairTax" at the American Enterprise Institute this week. You national sales tax geeks out there--you know who you are, and I love ya!--can listen to it here. But this post isn't about the "FairTax". It's about something interesting William Gale, an economist at Brookings Institution, pointed out during the debate:
We had an episode earlier in this decade where the government cut taxes, and one of the arguments was that this was going to force Congress to cut spending. Exactly the opposite happened. Spending skyrocketed. Historically, that has been the pattern. When we cut taxes spending goes up, and when we raise taxes we cut spending and impose fiscal discipline on both sides of the budget. That's what happened in the 1990s.
So what's up with that? Why hasn't "starving the beast" worked? William Niskanen of the libertarian Cato Institute has suggested a possible explanation: Cutting taxes makes government cheaper--for now, anyway--and people usually want more of something when it gets cheaper. In other news: The folks at the Wall Street Journal editorial page really should debunk this.
|W|P|117287564025502165|W|P|Want to lower government spending? Raise taxes.|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/14/2007 03:48:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|I thought the difference in the 1990s was that Clinton and the Republican Congress gridlocked Washington so that there were very few new spending initiatives (e.g. Hillary's healthcare plan). It didn't hurt that the Cold War was over and military spending was cut. In the 1980s and 2000s we had one party in control of the White House and Congress. Tax cuts and increased spending. You can blame it on the GOP but I think it was that there nobody there to fight the President and the President wasn't going to veto his own party.3/01/2007 03:13:00 PM|W|P|Pat Regnier|W|P| Maybe it's because you'd be bidding against this guy. To whoever left this at the Cafe Duke ATM: You won't be keeping that money for long if you keep paying those $1.75 terminal fees. You know your bank charges you an extra dollar on top of that, right? (Thanks to my colleague Sam Grobart for stumbling on this and donating it to Generation Risk.)|W|P|117278146551162514|W|P|Why you can't afford New York real estate|W|P|patregnier@gmail.com3/02/2007 02:15:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Wow! If that's what this person has floating around in their checking account, I'd be real interested to see what their investment accounts look like.

No worries though. There are lots of ways to avoid being priced out of the market.3/02/2007 03:40:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|How about "nobody rings a bell at the top". I think Allen Greenspan rang the bell a couple of day's ago.3/15/2007 07:03:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|The reason his balance is so high is that he just got paid his wall Street bonus by direct deposit in the middle of February. That happens to us all before we move it to our investment accont3/15/2007 07:32:00 PM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Why is the balance reading $0.00 though?-->